What motorcycles teach about maintenance • Hacker News Board

Re: What motorcycles teach about maintenance

#81

Post by NikolaNovak » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 6:22 PM UTC

BluePen7 wrote: post #71

dclowd9901 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bike mechanics are in high demand and not super common. The quote he gave seemed super on point to me. It’s what I’d charge if someone asked me to do the same thing. I could probably get it running for less but it would probably continue to break down over time

Just due to the lower volume the price jumps up unexpectedly. For the labour of an oil change, I was quoted $25 for my car, and $65 for my motorcycle. To change the oil and filter on my car, you have to reach in a super terrible spot prone to burning and cutting people who attempt it. On my motorcycle? It's an enduro, I have a foot of clearance and can see the single bolt required from across the driveway, it also re…

It's been... A very long time since I've been quoted that little for an oil change, by dealership or third party chain or an independent. And I do not drive an Audi either :-)

Few thoughts / possibilities

- was work done as part of larger work, as incremental?

- does 25$ charge include parts?

- was this a quick turnaround lube shop or an actual qualified mechanic

- do you have a relationship

- what's their business model? A lot of them have loss leaders because when they change your oil for 25 they'll find out you also need a brake change or filter change or or or

Re: What motorcycles teach about maintenance

#82

Post by motohagiography » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 6:25 PM UTC

I maintain my motorcycles but the romance around it is just a way to moralize fixing the consequences of my own negligence and incompetence:) That said, there's a life or death gravity to it, as the failure mode of a bike in motion can get a bit runny - and the romance is an instance of the idea that physical competence is fundamentally moral, which goes back to the stoics and Aristotle, and it underpins a lot of the hacker ethic.

The shortest summary of it I could describe is from the concept of "trueness," where you have a wheel or a reference point, a straight edge, or even just geometry, so you can physically apprehend what something is supposed to do as an objective ideal, and then you use that reference to reason, refine, and gauge your effort against it. Like the process of truing a wheel. Once you have an idea of what the perfect case is, chosing to align to that case is essentially moral.

In the case of a motorcycle, someones life depends on the integrity of your alignment to ensuring the trueness of the moving parts together. The effect of people generally choosing this now-moral alignment to precise measures and ideals produces desirable outcomes. This is what I think makes bike maintenance and other physical competencies philosophical, as their logic translates into metaphors pretty seamlessly.

Great article anyway. His comment on the public good of providing live saving organs is funny and accurate:

> The supply of organs and tissue from motorcycle riders has gone up in recent decades, especially in the 22 states that still don’t have helmet laws.

It's why EMT's call them donor-cycles.

Re: What motorcycles teach about maintenance

#83

Post by kube-system » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 6:34 PM UTC

pibechorro wrote: post #23

kube-system wrote: post #5

What Motorcycles Teach About Maintenance: fuel injection is great.

Carbs are also great. My xr650r can sit in a shed for 300 years and if it was clean when stored will start up in 2 kicks or at worst in 15min after opening the bowl with one screwdriver and cleaning the jets. There is no fuel pump to break (or weight the bike down), I could run the carb with a soda bottle if I had to. There are no complex computers to break and brick the bike. Beyond the reliability, the real value o…

> We loose something with tft displays, riding modes, non analog throttles, and every granny safety algorithm in between our brains and the rear tire.

My EFI bike has none of these.

EFI is just fuel metering. And properly designed EFI can theoretically do even better at a carb at doing what you've commanded the bike to do, because it can adjust fuel mapping in many more dimensions than a couple of needles.

I love my carb'd bike for what it is, but it ain't any better at doing what I've told it to do. It has character, and I can appreciate it for what it is, but it is not more precise or direct in feel than my EFI bike.

> There is no fuel pump to break

Some carb'd bikes have fuel pumps

Re: What motorcycles teach about maintenance

#84

Post by Velofellow » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 7:00 PM UTC

ben7799 wrote: post #68

artisanspam wrote: post #30

I’m curious to hear the perspective of someone who is both into motorcycles and bicycles, as I’ve only ridden on a motorcycle a handful of times, while I cycle nearly daily. Bicycle maintenance can be annoying, but it doesn’t seem nearly as time-intensive as motorcycle maintenance. On the other hand, the process of cycling feels better to me compared to being on a motor bike. It’s quieter, slower, and great exercise.…

I don't motorcycle anymore but did for a long time and did both a huge amount of riding and some very serious maintenance jobs. I have kept bicycling thousands of miles a year since. In the past I did a bunch of different types of bicycle racing. Never did motorcycle racing but I did go to quite a few track days. In general with a few exceptions everything on motorcycles is far more competently engineered. Bicycle ma…

Absolutely agree with the high end bike vs. motorcycle cost analysis. My new, but prior floor year Ducati was roughly the same price as either of S-works mountain bikes. Sorta crazy to the uninitiated. Or anyone.

I have a pet theory, that the proliferation of top-shelf Class 1/pedal assist Ebikes ($14-15k) has given manufacturers the green light to raise prices on top of all the covid supply chain gremlins. The number of $10k analogue mountain bikes has blown up in the past 3 years.

I do wonder how any cost impact that comes from miniaturization of bicycle components (coupled with smaller production quantities using composites) looks compared to their moto counterparts. Offering the same bike frame with 5+ different component builds must have some cost ramifications with supply chain management in buying /allocating groupsets & components en masse. It does seem like the mountain bike market has matured a bit: fewer radical yearly geometry changes, more streamlining and sensible, incremental changes. Just my thoughts as a voracious consumer of bike stuff. I'm all for a standardizing brake bleed ports and hydraulic maintenance - mineral oil please!

It's funny, I've anecdotally noticed the opposite here in Austin. The number of motorcycle riders who clearly have no concept of handling a moto seems to outnumber the people acting the same way on bicycles. Can't speak to your locale, but Austin certainly has a strong cycling community with lots of proficient riders; I think I'm also in a bit of a filter bubble with my riding crew.

Re: What motorcycles teach about maintenance

#85

Post by taylodl » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 7:02 PM UTC

moudis wrote: post #33

mikestew wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You obviously RTFA, but it's intellectually dishonest to state that all it needs is a new battery and a little carb cleaner. Sure, you get it running, and take it down the road. Now the forks seals demonstrate that they're dried out and cracked, and leaking oil. I don't know how old the bike was at the time of writing, but let's assume 30 years old. Odds are really good that the brake lines have never been replaced.…

It discounts what you're liable to run into once you start disassembling things on old bikes, really. Sometimes you discover that a previous owner or mechanic thought red Loctite belonged on the screws holding the four carburetors together[^0], and your afternoon now involves a torch and chasing threads in old aluminum carburetor bodies. Sometimes you find that the bike was last touched in an era before anyone knew w…

I'm a new motorcycle rider riding a Suzuki and I didn't know what a JIS screwdriver was! Thanks to you I do now!

Re: What motorcycles teach about maintenance

#86

Post by dole » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 8:02 PM UTC

unregistereddev wrote: post #77

Having tried to read Persig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, I struggle to understand the book's popularity. The more I read the more I was convinced it was not the work of a healthy mind. Maybe he was schizophrenic? Wikipedia says yes, he was. As someone who enjoys working on my own car and motorcycle - and as someone who does find a certain zen in maintaining the machines that I own - the book was a pro…

Zen was published in 1974, and I believe followed [cashed in on] the motorcycle boom from the late-50's to early-70's. Chopper, motorcycle gang, and greaser culture was just starting to fade and by the time it was published, those reformed 50's and 60's hoodlums were coming of age.

Re: What motorcycles teach about maintenance

#87

Post by taeric » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 8:28 PM UTC

tonymet wrote: post #79

taeric wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful, there. Modern motorcycles are probably beyond many home mechanics, as well. Similarly, if it is for the hobby, older cars are fine. And if you don't trust the shop you are taking your vehicle to for rigorous standards, you should probably look into a different shop. :(

can you be more specific ? what systems?

Wrong post? I don't think I mentioned systems.

That said, I am mainly referring to modern gearing and injection systems. Basic maintenance is probably well within what folks can do. But that is true of cars, as well. No?

Re: What motorcycles teach about maintenance

#88

Post by doubled112 » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 9:02 PM UTC

NikolaNovak wrote: post #81

BluePen7 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just due to the lower volume the price jumps up unexpectedly. For the labour of an oil change, I was quoted $25 for my car, and $65 for my motorcycle. To change the oil and filter on my car, you have to reach in a super terrible spot prone to burning and cutting people who attempt it. On my motorcycle? It's an enduro, I have a foot of clearance and can see the single bolt required from across the driveway, it also re…

It's been... A very long time since I've been quoted that little for an oil change, by dealership or third party chain or an independent. And I do not drive an Audi either :-) Few thoughts / possibilities - was work done as part of larger work, as incremental? - does 25$ charge include parts? - was this a quick turnaround lube shop or an actual qualified mechanic - do you have a relationship - what's their business m…

I knew I was getting screwed but wow.

$160 last time I got an oil change at the dealership.

There is usually one bottle that meets spec in retail stores, and it is $80 alone.

I kick myself for the VW diesel pretty consistently, but I still have some time left on the Dieselgate warranty extension.

Canadian prices?

Re: What motorcycles teach about maintenance

#89

Post by sokoloff » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 9:27 PM UTC

ben7799 wrote: post #67

pibechorro wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbs are also great. My xr650r can sit in a shed for 300 years and if it was clean when stored will start up in 2 kicks or at worst in 15min after opening the bowl with one screwdriver and cleaning the jets. There is no fuel pump to break (or weight the bike down), I could run the carb with a soda bottle if I had to. There are no complex computers to break and brick the bike. Beyond the reliability, the real value o…

Car guys are almost completely unable to understand the "feel" difference you're talking about between carburetors and EFI because the car's controls are separated by so many levels from the engine and basically all street cars have such huge flywheel mass that you can't really feel what the engine is doing. And the # of people who ever drove a car that had separate throttle butterflies + carbs for each cylinder is m…

Lots of fairly pedestrian late 50s and 60s cars had multiple carbs and synchronization procedures needed to get them to be streetable. (These were common on physically long L6 (inline) engines.)

I’d bet a fair number of old people and old car enthusiasts have driven them.

My 65 and 66 Mustangs run great as long as I don’t let modern ethanol-polluted gas sit in them.

Re: What motorcycles teach about maintenance

#90

Post by cand0r » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 9:37 PM UTC

unregistereddev wrote: post #77

Having tried to read Persig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, I struggle to understand the book's popularity. The more I read the more I was convinced it was not the work of a healthy mind. Maybe he was schizophrenic? Wikipedia says yes, he was. As someone who enjoys working on my own car and motorcycle - and as someone who does find a certain zen in maintaining the machines that I own - the book was a pro…

What stuck with me (I couldn't finish it either) was the difference between the main character and his friend's attitude to maintenance issues. Specifically the soda can shim situation. His friend had a loose handle bar or something, and the solution was a metal shim. The friend refused to "use trash as a shim" (a piece of aluminum can) and would rather pay someone at a shop to fix it. That sort of world view is something that always really irked me, but I never know how to describe it.