Live data from Hacker News

Modern language models refute Chomsky’s approach to language

scholar.google.com

81–90 of 244 posts

Re: Modern language models refute Chomsky’s approach to language

#81
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Children raised in isolation will spontaneously develop language I don’t have a reference handy now (someone can probably do better) but I believe one way to see this is via the hearing impaired or hearing and sight impaired

There's really no good data to support this claim.

>There's really no good data to support this claim.

Fine.

We know that languages did not exist at some point. We made them exist.

Re: Modern language models refute Chomsky’s approach to language

#82
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We did, at least once.

No, humans learn their languages through observation and generation - watching older people speak, and then imitating it. They get corrections, too, when they mispronounce or misuse words.

You've got a huge chicken and egg problem here that you haven't resolved.

Re: Modern language models refute Chomsky’s approach to language

#83
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. No Language model is yet even close to the scale of the human brain 2. Depending on what exactly you're trying to teach (perfect grammar, paragraphs of coherent text, basic reasoning), much less data is needed. https://arxiv.org/abs/2305.07759 3. Brains don't start at 0. Evolution, dna/rna etc. There's obviously some pre disposition for language learning in humans but that alone isn't enough ground for a "universa…

> No Language model is yet even close to the scale of the human brain If GPT-4 has 100 trillion parameters, it has as many parameters as the human brain has synapses. Synapses are a lot simpler than parameters; they're digital. A single neuron needs many synapses, all of roughly equal weight, emitting many pulses over a short time in order to convey a single weighted value. On top of that, you may have heard that the…

>If GPT-4 has 100 trillion parameters

It doesn't.

>Synapses are a lot simpler than parameters

Not true but someone else has explained why.

>a 100 trillion parameter model is unambiguously larger than the language processing portions of the human brain.

GPT-4 is not that big. The technology to run such a model at scale is simply not feasible yet.

>The human genome is 24 gigabits long. It's negligibly small compared to a language model.

I'm sorry bit this makes no sense. How many gigabits long the genome is has no bearing on how impactful it is in steering the development of the human brain in comparison to a ML model.

Re: Modern language models refute Chomsky’s approach to language

#84
post #8

The author (bafflingly) seems to have completely missed the point- since anything they state up to page 15 (at which point I stopped reading) does not refute Chomsky's points at all. The author talks about LLMs and how they generate text and then goes on to talk about how it refutes Chomsky's claim about syntax and semantics. However it does not since Chomsky's primary claim is about how HUMANS acquire language. The…

> The fact that you can replicate coherent text from probabilistic analysis and modeling of a very large corpus does not mean that humans acquire and generate language the same way. Also, the LLMs are cheating! They learned from us. It's entirely possible that you do need syntax/semantics/sapience to create the original corpus, but not to duplicate it. Let's see an AlphaZero-style version of an LLM, that learns langu…

> Also, the LLMs are cheating! They learned from us.

Ding ding ding, right answer!

Now I leave you with a thought: given that the AI is learning from us, is it possible to have an AI that's much more intelligent than their "source of truth"?

Re: Modern language models refute Chomsky’s approach to language

#85
post #56

Tangentially related, but it's interesting that Chomsky stated in a few interviews that he seems LLMs as just plagiarism machines, that they don't create anything new. Which I disagree with - us being creative is also just colliding patterns together. But at the same time I kind of assign higher value to his opinion than mine..

These are two different modes being conflated. A person committing plagiarism is akin to a how a GPT creates a document. "Okay, this word... and then this word... and then this word..."

This is opposed to modeling a concept in your mind, and then applying language through denotation. This isn't unlike composing a request to be sent over a specific protocol. The data exists independently of the protocol and could even be fit to more protocols, with the right understanding of how to implement them. Sure, you have to read some docs, and maybe use a library somebody else wrote, but nobody in their right mind would call that plagiarism. This is more akin to how language works in the human brain, where each new language is like a different protocol.

Re: Modern language models refute Chomsky’s approach to language

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that you can replicate coherent text from probabilistic analysis and modeling of a very large corpus does not mean that humans acquire and generate language the same way. Also, the LLMs are cheating! They learned from us. It's entirely possible that you do need syntax/semantics/sapience to create the original corpus, but not to duplicate it. Let's see an AlphaZero-style version of an LLM, that learns langu…

Man I remember when people downplayed AlphaGo because it didn't teach itself unsupervised. "Nothing to see here". Only took them a few months to do AlphaZero.

It's entirely possible that making AlphaGo teach itself with no training examples is much, much easier than doing so for an LLM. Not all problems in AI have the same hardness!

Re: Modern language models refute Chomsky’s approach to language

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans learn from the structure of the world -- not the structure of language. LLMs cheat at generating text because they do so via a model of the statistical structure of text. We're in the world , it is us who stipulate the meaning of words and the structure of text. And we stipulate new meanings to novel parts of the world daily . What else is an 'iPhone' etc. ? There's nothing in `i P h o n e` which is at all lik…

Exactly. A very uncomfortable truth for those heavily invested (time/money/credence) in this latest AI wave.

It’s odd to see people doomwaving two general reasoning engines.

It’s especially hard to parse a dark sweeping condemnation based on…people are investing in it? It doesn’t have the right to assign names to things? Idk what the argument is.

My most charitable interpretation is “it cant reason abour anything unless we already said it” which is obviously false.

Re: Modern language models refute Chomsky’s approach to language

#90
post #8

The author (bafflingly) seems to have completely missed the point- since anything they state up to page 15 (at which point I stopped reading) does not refute Chomsky's points at all. The author talks about LLMs and how they generate text and then goes on to talk about how it refutes Chomsky's claim about syntax and semantics. However it does not since Chomsky's primary claim is about how HUMANS acquire language. The…

For people who don't understand this, the reason humans refer to "Alex" much later in a story is not because they are statistically recalling that they said "Alex" dozens or hundreds of words earlier (as the LLM is described doing in the paper), but because they have a world-model they are actively describing, where "Alex" refers to an entity in that world-model. We know that the LLM is only saying "Alex" because it appeared earlier, but we also know humans don't work like that, so how can the LLM's generation of language say anything about how humans acquire and use it?
Post reply on HN