Earlier quoted context omitted.
> They were leaving their original family, thus reducing the number of people who'd need to be fed and sheltered, while the husband's family was taking on that duty, thus they claimed to deserve compensation Wow, that's an insane perspective. So even your own daughters were thought of as a burden?
In many societies, women's labour was significantly undervalued compared to men's, so the more women, relative to men there are in your household, the more stress it puts on your resources. Also, if women in a society inherit nothing (Because it all goes to sons), whomever they marry is going to expect a dowry, instead. Which puts further financial stress on the family, to save up for said dowry. Which is made more d…
How Dowries Are Fuelling a Femicide Epidemic
81–90 of 114 posts
Re: How Dowries Are Fuelling a Femicide Epidemic
#82Dowries are a plague on humanity. They’re rooted in the idea that women are property. I lived in India in the 1970s as a child. At that time the shorthand was “cooking accident” when new brides were killed. As in, “The bride’s father couldn’t pay the dowry. Too bad she had that unfortunate cooking accident.” The local man who did our laundry had four daughters, and it was considered a curse. He killed himself because…
Re: How Dowries Are Fuelling a Femicide Epidemic
#83Re: How Dowries Are Fuelling a Femicide Epidemic
#84The article I read regarding dowry failed to address a crucial point – it presented the issue in binary terms. For women who grow up in rural areas and get married within their local communities, the crux of the problem lies in the gray area. While cases of physical torture inflicted by husbands or their families for dowry exist, they represent a minority compared to the emotional torture women endure if they fail to meet expectations.
Let me share an example involving a close relative of mine. Her daughter was married into a local community, and before the wedding, an agreement was made to provide a dowry of 10,000 euros along with covering the wedding expenses. For my relatives, this was a significant sum, and they managed to gather around 70% of the agreed amount, which they handed over to the groom's family. Unfortunately, their efforts were met with disappointment. The real problems for the girl began a month after the wedding. She was not treated with respect or equality in her new home. Her husband never supported her and constantly criticized everything she did, as did her mother and father-in-law. While they never resorted to physical abuse, the emotional abuse she endured was indescribable. Constant pestering, undermining her upbringing, and calling her unfit for everything took a severe toll on her mental health. She even contemplated suicide multiple times.
Now, at this point, many of you might feel sympathetic and wish to offer advice, which I'm sure can be categorized into the following three options:
Why can't she divorce him and pursue a happier life? It may seem easy for us to suggest, as we are not the ones who have to face the consequences. Unfortunately, in India, especially in rural areas, divorce still remains a taboo, and mental health concerns are often disregarded. She believes that enduring emotional suffering is a better option than going through a divorce. She has resigned herself to her fate, feeling that she cannot change it and must work with what she has. This sad reality is further compounded if she has children, amplifying her sense of entrapment.
Why not report the family to the police and hold them accountable? Let's consider the scenario in which she lodges a complaint. What is likely to happen? The police may issue a warning to the family, given the absence of physical abuse. However, this would only widen the divide between her and her husband's family. The alternative, as we have already discussed, is divorce.
Consequently, she finds herself trapped in an endless loop of suffering, seeking solace and happiness through her children. As a child, I remember her as a beautiful and vibrant charismatic woman. However, when I see her now, all I see is the profound sorrow buried within her eyes. Yet, she still wears a smile for her children and clings to a tiny glimmer of optimism that tomorrow will be better.
Re: How Dowries Are Fuelling a Femicide Epidemic
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not sure how dowries are rooted in the idea that women are property... If you were talking about bride price then it would make more sense. In many cultures the men had to pay the father of the bride, thus people in a sense were literally selling their daughters. Still there was a reason for this at the time, in those cultures, women moved to live with the husband family, and at same time their labor was important, i…
The logic behind dowries was that women were a burden since they would be relying on the husband for food, shelter and protection. They were leaving their original family, thus reducing the number of people who'd need to be fed and sheltered, while the husband's family was taking on that duty, thus they claimed to deserve compensation. Such cultures suffered from similar other ills like mistreating or kicking out wid…
Re: How Dowries Are Fuelling a Femicide Epidemic
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah. Majority of marriages even today are arranged by the family and it becomes impersonal and somewhat crassly practical. Choices are sorted by their family's net worth, social standing, color(darker complexion is looked down), age and education. Choices usually belong to the same caste. Color has nothing to do with race, like in US. People come in all sorts of colors, even in the same family, like Mendelian flower…
One thing that steuck me as odd, and out right bizarre, was reading some English language newspaper in Delhi like a decade ago. My assumption, as a liberal European, was a) an English language paper most likely was read by more educated people and b) youth problems, I come to that, are more or less the same. The odd thing so was a whole bunch of readers letters, in a kind of advice collum of sorts, around the questio…
Don't think this is true. Arranged marriages have gone down since I was a kid in India, though it is still true for majority.
>> about how us Europeans have a probpem with arranged marriages in the Muslim world, but upheld, at the time, India as this huge, free democracy.
India is a free democracy, but life revolves around family. Which is good if things work out, and utterly suffocating when not.
Re: How Dowries Are Fuelling a Femicide Epidemic
#87Dowries are a plague on humanity. They’re rooted in the idea that women are property. I lived in India in the 1970s as a child. At that time the shorthand was “cooking accident” when new brides were killed. As in, “The bride’s father couldn’t pay the dowry. Too bad she had that unfortunate cooking accident.” The local man who did our laundry had four daughters, and it was considered a curse. He killed himself because…
Baby machines. It reminds me of the Tleilaxu in Dune. It's understandable because humans were dropping like flies 2000 years ago.
Re: How Dowries Are Fuelling a Femicide Epidemic
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
The logic behind dowries was that women were a burden since they would be relying on the husband for food, shelter and protection. They were leaving their original family, thus reducing the number of people who'd need to be fed and sheltered, while the husband's family was taking on that duty, thus they claimed to deserve compensation. Such cultures suffered from similar other ills like mistreating or kicking out wid…
> They were leaving their original family, thus reducing the number of people who'd need to be fed and sheltered, while the husband's family was taking on that duty, thus they claimed to deserve compensation Wow, that's an insane perspective. So even your own daughters were thought of as a burden?
Well, sons too, but they were a net positive because they worked and brought money home.
If women were allowed to work for (non-trivial) money in traditional indian culture they'd be a net positive too.
Re: How Dowries Are Fuelling a Femicide Epidemic
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yep, it was very messed up. It also went both ways, my maternal grandmother suffered decades of abuse from her son because she didn't consider her married daughters to be 'her' family. It took a plan of forcibly sneaking her out, moving her away and threatening her son with legal action to get her away. Even after that she struggled to accept being a 'burden' on her daughters.
This is the first time I've heard of a cultural practice that I cannot fathom. Not "wow that was crazy for the time", but "I don't understand how this ever made sense". I guess it's borne out of extreme resource scarcity? The idea that someone is a permanent burden regardless of what they do is hard for me to wrap my head around.
Re: How Dowries Are Fuelling a Femicide Epidemic
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yep, it was very messed up. It also went both ways, my maternal grandmother suffered decades of abuse from her son because she didn't consider her married daughters to be 'her' family. It took a plan of forcibly sneaking her out, moving her away and threatening her son with legal action to get her away. Even after that she struggled to accept being a 'burden' on her daughters.
This is the first time I've heard of a cultural practice that I cannot fathom. Not "wow that was crazy for the time", but "I don't understand how this ever made sense". I guess it's borne out of extreme resource scarcity? The idea that someone is a permanent burden regardless of what they do is hard for me to wrap my head around.
There are millions of such people, but it's not based on sex.
People from the bottom parts of intelligence distribution are a "burden", because no amount of labor they produce will generate more value for society than they consume (in food, housing, healthcare).
In developed countries we are able to collectively shoulder such a burden, because we do not live an a resource-scarce environment like you mentioned (when it comes to basic necessities)
> The idea that someone is a permanent burden regardless of what they do is hard for me to wrap my head around.
Don't get fixated on the "permanent" part of this. Some people can generate positive and negative value through different periods of their lives. Kids This is not a bad thing, just a natural cycle of life.