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Lung cancer pill cuts risk of death by half

theguardian.com

81–90 of 116 posts

Re: Lung cancer pill cuts risk of death by half

#81
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The really crappy part of lung cancer is that it's very uncommon to detect it because there aren't really any symptoms to speak of. Eventually it will metastasize so some other part of the body and THAT will give symptoms. When my Mum was diagnosed the Dr. said the bad news is you have cancer in the bones in your neck. The really bad news is that it started in your lungs, and it's way, way to far along to do anything…

The good thing is in most people (particularly smokers) it is very slow growing. We also have great non-invasive curative treatment options like stereotactic radiation.

Don’t smokers account for ~99% of cases of small-cell lung cancer, which is by far the worst type to have (very prone to metastasis and grows rapidly)?

Re: Lung cancer pill cuts risk of death by half

#82
post #77

Halfway through the article, they spell out what they mean by "cuts risk of death by half": > After five years, 88% of patients who took the daily pill after the removal of their tumour were still alive, compared with 78% of patients treated with a placebo. ...which is still remarkable, but doesn't sound quite as good as "cutting by half".

After 5 years, (i) Placebo: 22% mortality, (ii) Daily Pill: 12% mortality.

45% reduction in 5-year mortality. Quite close to “cutting by half”

Re: Lung cancer pill cuts risk of death by half

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are reasons why drug approval can be slow and conservative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide_scandal

Yet the harm from that (10,000) was in many ways tiny compared to the harm from not deploying treatments that turn out to be good. For example 780,000 people died of polio between 1988 and today. Yet for all that time there has been a cheap, low risk, well tested, near 100% effective vaccine (many in fact). And polio is probably one of the better cases because governments and charities have been pushing it pretty har…

The polio vaccine has been approved by the FDA during all of that time. Therefore, I don't understand how the deaths during that time provide evidence that the FDA should approve drugs faster.

Edit: Also, polio eradication efforts where a Manhattan project style heroic effort.

Re: Lung cancer pill cuts risk of death by half

#84
I’m writing this live from the ASCO meeting where this was just presented. Osimertinib (TAGRISSO) has truly transformed the way we treat EGFR-mutant NSCLC, having repeatedly redefined standards of care. I don’t have a source handy, but osi used to hold a record in oncology as being the fastest drug to go from IND (trial-enabling) to approval - less than 18 months.

Osimertinib did $5.44B in global sales last year, leading AstraZeneca’s oncology portfolio [0]

[0] https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/dam/az/PDF/2022/fy/Full-...

Re: Lung cancer pill cuts risk of death by half

#85

The pricing of drugs is always weird to me. Is there a good book / article / primer on why a drug can cost the price of a good house per person ? Is it just about recouping R&D, does manufacturing requires very rare raw materials, is the bill going up because of regulation, etc... ? How big a check would a government have to do to just "buy" the rights to a drug ? (Both in the "legal" and in the "an offer the CEO can…

the pricing is partially due to a lack of collective negotiation the government programs carry a lot of weight as a large client but are currently barred from negotiating on prices part of some US universal healthcare proposals are to just allow existing government programs to negotiate on prices, while simultaneously extending coverage to more people

It costs about $7000 in Europe (the price seems to be similar in different country even though there is no EU wide collective negotiation).

The price in the US seems to be around double in the US. But maybe that just pharma companies do PPP adjusted pricing? e.g. it seems to cost ~1500 in India for instance. Americans are simply much richer and also significantly more on healthcare than people in other countries.

Re: Lung cancer pill cuts risk of death by half

#86
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far too cynical. You are incredibly uninformed about the significance of this drug.

I could be wrong. Absolutely. I am always open to more information. However, I'm usually not wrong about these things. This pattern is so common in big pharma it's an easy bet right now. Based upon the limited information released I would bet: 1) it has high odds of being very lucrative for a small number of people 2) it will be a net negative for patients^ ^ Patients would be better off with more money and using an…

> I could be wrong. Absolutely. I am always open to more information.

You're still a bit too cynical but there are some nuggets of truth in what you're saying.

With regards to mutation testing: I'm not sure where this Hopkins guy is getting his data from but mutation testing for lung cancer is already standard of care, it's been part of the NCCN guidelines for > 5 years at least.

EGFR is not the only driver mutation and osimertinib is not the only drug that can be used, even for EGFR.

Molecular marker and genetic testing of cancer is unequivocally to the benefit of patients and is not a BigPharma scam, it also has little to do with this specific drug other than that this is one of many gene-directed cancer therapies.

> 2) it will be a net negative for patients^ > ^ Patients would be better off with more money and using an alternative treatment strategy. This drug is priced at $12,750 per month, according to Wikipedia.

Be careful with generalizations like this. This drug is very signficant, you just have to select patients appropriately.

There is no doubt osimertinib works well, if you have unresectable/non-curable lung cancer it can potentially buy the patient an extra couple of years (median ~8 months) over previous generation TKIs and even longer versus conventional chemo. These patients used to just die within a few months 5-10 years ago.

This article, and the trial it talks about, is about adjuvant therapy (i.e. after the surgery) in patients with locally-advanced but curative intent disease that at baseline have pretty good good survival so in this specific use-case your criticism of cost-effectiveness is a reasonable one.

Consider a 45 year old with an EGFR mutation and stage IV lung cancer (unfortunately common these days), an extra 8 months-3 years is immensely significant for them and their families and this is a miracle drug.

On the other side of the spectrum, for a 75 y/o with stage II cancer who underwent curative-intent treatment (i.e. this study population), the argument is much weaker given the costs vs low absolute risk reduction over a long time period. I broke down the financials in another comment.

You're probably right that the numbers won't add up in this trial for this specific patient population, the article + PR releases so far do smell a bit like AstraZeneca buffing somewhat underwhelming results (expectation was that overall survival would look better than 10%) to sell more of an expensive drug, but you're overgeneralizing and it is a very good treatment option in well selected patients. It will also be a great adjuvant treatment option whenever this becomes cheaper like 1st-gen TKIs are now.

Re: Lung cancer pill cuts risk of death by half

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn't he tell the public that every cancer is unique? It's technically true, much in the same way it's technically true you studied cancer but have for years been working with entirely unrelated fields to the advancement of cancer research. You're as much of an authoritative figure on this topic as a random person on the street.

Technically true is how most science education got screwed up in every field of science. We went from educators like Carl Sagan and Feynman who would take great pains to make sure they don't just tell technically true statements to most researchers today blatantly saying misleading technically true statements for a living to get grant money. Every second grant and paper nowadays literally starts with a disingenuous g…

> They all literally share the same DNA, they can't be that different.

They share the same DNA in the sense that every cell in that body does. But the different types of cancers have different mutations per cell type and the increasingly precise identification of those is the basis of the recent new treatment options. Histological classifications become less and less relevant, instead mutations and subtypes of mutations give directions for treatment paths. So I think that statement is a bit confusing.

Re: Lung cancer pill cuts risk of death by half

#88

According to the CDC, 80-90% of lung cancer deaths are linked to cigarette smoking (1). It seems like a simple solution for people to just not smoke... (1) https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/lung/basic_info/risk_factors.htm#... .

'Nicotine releases a chemical called dopamine in the same regions of the brain as other addictive drugs. It causes mood-altering changes that make the person temporarily feel good. Inhaled smoke delivers nicotine to the brain within 20 seconds, which makes it very addictive—comparable to opioids, alcohol and cocaine. This "rush" is a major part of the addictive process. 'When the person stops using tobacco, nicotine…

There are other ways to consume nicotine which are much less harmful.

Re: Lung cancer pill cuts risk of death by half

#89
post #53

> After five years, 88% of patients who took the daily pill after the removal of their tumour were still alive, compared with 78% of patients treated with a placebo. My chance of living 5 years goes from 78% to 88% by taking an expensive pill everyday with side effects? That's not an amazing thing. If it was 78% to 95% with one or two pills, or a positive healthy lifestyle change, then that's something. I'm going to…

> My chance of living 5 years goes from 78% to 88% by taking an expensive pill everyday with side effects?

Reducing the likelihood of death by a half is still something... Of course yeah, the price is pretty insane but besides that it's still a great achievement and a significant step in the right direction.

Re: Lung cancer pill cuts risk of death by half

#90
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats still 1366 people every day worldwide. Think about that... If the committee whose job is approving this medicine get results in on Friday, but don't sit down to approve it till the following Monday, then 4098 people die unnecessarily.

the FDA face an unenviable challenge: how to promote healthcare innovation without endangering patients? regulations that are too loose may cause suffering and death while regulations that are too strict will delay or block prevent helpful treatments. regulating healthcare is extremely difficult and largely a thankless job. one solution is to approach national healthcare like national security and let people voluntee…

> in short, overstate risks but let patients decide.

Then you have to battle the people selling highly marked up snake oil as an 'experimental' treatment - when every expert could tell you this treatment is already well known to be ineffective.

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