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How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

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Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#81

Post by ben_w »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #50
divan wrote: post #47

The problem is that internet is both a library and a public place. You need library for information and for work, and internet delivers here better than anything else - almost any information is available instantly. But unlike library with silence and no distractions you're at the same time in the middle of the giant public square, where all the people from your social circle also available instantly. It's like study…

> I really believe this social aspect of reachability of people (friends, haters or some people on internet you follow) is crucial. It's not about apps or a screen time, it's about social connection (even ephemeral) that gives this gratification and makes our brains summoning the apps. This. I've concluded the same, observing my own interaction patterns. I use very little social media (would've ditched Facebook if no…

> I do, however, have a huge HN problem.

So I've noticed — you and pjc50 are on enough threads, with interesting enough comments, that you fit into the same bit of my brain otherwise used for celebrities like Tom Scott and Scott Manly.

(Weirdly, most other high-karma accounts don't get filed like that in my head)

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#82

Post by divan »

throwaway1777 wrote: post #79
divan wrote: post #47

The problem is that internet is both a library and a public place. You need library for information and for work, and internet delivers here better than anything else - almost any information is available instantly. But unlike library with silence and no distractions you're at the same time in the middle of the giant public square, where all the people from your social circle also available instantly. It's like study…

I disagree that it’s a problem and with your analogy. The internet is more like a giant sprawling suburb where one house is studying advanced maths and the other is throwing a keg party. Sure it might disturb you to have neighbors like that but you have your own space.

Perhaps my analogy with studing at the party was not perfect. The point was that your friends are here and now, not that someone is making noises and having fun.

You're right from the structural/organizational perspective. If you visit astronomy forums and not 4chan, houses analogy holds true.

But my analogy comes from how my brain perceives reachability of other humans (especially one I care about). When I'm "in house", it takes a lot of effort to meet someone and have the human connection (i.e. you should agree on time and date, arrange the meeting, exit the house, reach the meeting point). But internet makes this almost instant – just open messenger/social media and here they're are, virtually always online.

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#83

Post by alwaysbeconsing »

dmbche wrote: post #60
TeMPOraL wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly agree. I wish it would work for me, though. In fact, I dislike browsing Reddit and HN on my mobile, as even though Reddit Is Fun (for Reddit) and Firefox (for HN) are excellent for consuming , I'm in it for participation, so I'm limited by touch keyboards, which universally suck. At this point I've pretty much given up. During my HN-satiated moments, I can't devise a plan that my HN-deprived self won…

Just a quick tip - but I understand it's possibly not ideal. You have a lot of karma, and I've noticed that the karma counter going up feels somewhat addictive. The existence of a "persona" (it's possible you think of your identity here as slightly different from your daily identity) that is only supported by your commenting also might encourage commenting. I'd propose to nuke your account by changing the password to…

Excellent tip. A lighter form, that I use personally for Reddit, is to not sign in persistently. I always use a "private" browser window when I log in, so the cookie isn't saved, and the next time I want to log in I have to go dig the (unmemorizable) password out of my password manager again and go through the whole flow. For me it creates just enough friction.

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#84

Post by Rediscover »

baq wrote: post #73
bckr wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made the move from Facebook > Reddit > HackerNews for similar reasons. I've been looking for the next step. Is it > magazines? > books? > phone calls? > irl networking? It’s all of these, yes, but I still open HN every time I get some down time. While it feels very useful to me, I feel that I would be better served with a more condensed version of what I’m after here. I think I’m proposing a mailing list?

A Usenet gateway to HN with a daily pull of the feed like we used to have in the 90s. It’s probably nostalgia speaking, but…

Reading the comments here (and the short article) /exactly/ reminded me of usenet and bitnet[feeds]. I am glad I kicked that habit in the late '80s/early '90s, it made it simple to avoid later social media.

(I still miss them, but not Eternal September)

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#85

Post by laratied »

tinsmith wrote: post #6
eesmith wrote: post #4

> AA meetings don’t give out badges to members who drink for less than 2 hours per day. I don't agree with that analogy. To use a different analogy, people don't join Weight Watchers because they want to quit eating. Also, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous#Criticism : ] Stanton Peele argued that some AA groups apply the disease model to all problem drinkers, whether or not they are "full-blown"…

While what you quoted is not incorrect, and worth pointing out, the analogy stands. In AA, you only get the chip if you abstain from drinking. The chip (a little coin) is an all-or-nothing deal. In AA, we do get people attending who just want to control their drinking. They're usually sent by the courts (in the US, at least) due to some misdemeanor they commited while drunk, as though those of us battling ourselves a…

Food addiction is a better example I think. You have to learn to moderate, you can't just go cold turkey.

I am sure AA doesn't bother with moderation because abstaining is simply that much more effective.

Even if you went on a month long screen detox in the woods you are going to "relapse" at some point when you get back. The AA model is just not going to work in this situation.

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#86

Post by TeMPOraL »

ben_w wrote: post #81
TeMPOraL wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really believe this social aspect of reachability of people (friends, haters or some people on internet you follow) is crucial. It's not about apps or a screen time, it's about social connection (even ephemeral) that gives this gratification and makes our brains summoning the apps. This. I've concluded the same, observing my own interaction patterns. I use very little social media (would've ditched Facebook if no…

> I do, however, have a huge HN problem. So I've noticed — you and pjc50 are on enough threads, with interesting enough comments, that you fit into the same bit of my brain otherwise used for celebrities like Tom Scott and Scott Manly. (Weirdly, most other high-karma accounts don't get filed like that in my head)

In my case, it's likely because I post a lot of sophisticated sounding nonsense - I'm the biological ancestor of ChatGPT :). That, plus I tend to binge on HN, which makes my comments come in bursts - I either post nothing, or comment in 15 different subthreads across 5 different submissions simultaneously. So when you spot me in one place, you'll probably see me everywhere that day.

Other high-karma accounts likely post in less bursty mode, and only write high-value comments on select topics, so you spot them less.

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#87

Post by nehal3m »

josefresco wrote: post #57

"When it helps you to check in on your partner, to get directions, or to edit photos professionally, time doesn’t matter as much—does it?" I run into this conundrum every time I consider a dumbphone.

Those things can be solved in their own way though. A dumb phone can let you check in on your partner, you can use your old smartphone as a dedicated GPS and if you're taking photos with a dedicated camera (which you'll have to if you don't have a smartphone) editing them on mobile is simply not an option. You're better off editing on a laptop or tablet.

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#88

Post by pixl97 »

divan wrote: post #82
throwaway1777 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that it’s a problem and with your analogy. The internet is more like a giant sprawling suburb where one house is studying advanced maths and the other is throwing a keg party. Sure it might disturb you to have neighbors like that but you have your own space.

Perhaps my analogy with studing at the party was not perfect. The point was that your friends are here and now, not that someone is making noises and having fun. You're right from the structural/organizational perspective. If you visit astronomy forums and not 4chan, houses analogy holds true. But my analogy comes from how my brain perceives reachability of other humans (especially one I care about). When I'm "in hou…

"X degrees of separation"

IRL we typically have multiple degrees of separation from other people/things. You can be separated by distance/time. You can be separated by people, for example to have a party with Jon, you need to coordinate with Bob. Things like noise tend to obey the R squared law.

With the internet nearly everything is a single instantaneous hop away. The good things, the bad things. The same amount of effort is needed to access it all.

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#89

Post by habosa »

nobrains wrote: post #7

But its more than that. I might visit Reddit and Hacker News, not because the app summoned me via notifications, but because my brain summoned the app, after just a 15 minute hiatus. The issue is that browser and certain apps are available to me on the phone instantly. And there are no good controls to help me me MINDFUL. What I want from the phone (I use an iPhone): - Upon every unlock, or upon every app open, I sho…

I think you may be interested in something like this: https://www.getclearspace.com/

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#90

Post by xpe »

nologic01 wrote: post #31

Its not the phone. Its the screen. It could have been in any form factor - it was in another, less usable, form factor. The portability just clinched it for billions and made the issue of the screen more pressing than ever. The screen is the window to the matrix, our collective digital space. That matrix is something incredibly powerful. We have not tamed it. We don't even have a theory of taming it. A psychological,…

Theories around mindfulness are a good start, don't you think? What is missing?

I have some thoughts here. Traditional meditation practice is accepting of the tendency of the mind to wander. Such is the nature of our minds. Over time, we strive to improve our ability to focus / concentrate / redirect our attention.

But when it comes to socio-technical design we need more than infinite patience around distractions. We probably want and need to evaluate how we do. Tor example:

- how often are we distracted? - for how long? - why? (is it simply due to our 'wandering' brains? And/or it is more causally connected to environmental factors, such as attention-stealing devices?) - what interventions work for certain kinds of distractions?

Sometimes people are drawn to the notions of metrics. There is value in metrics; there are clear mathematical ways to calculate them. Collecting, them on the other hand, can be quite challenging.

But let's not limit ourselves to 'metrics' in the quantitative sense. The reason is obvious: some of our most important goals are not easily put into quantitative terms. Luckily, with vast improvements in text processing, we need not limit ourselves to traditional metrics based on scoring. We must think bigger and broader.

With a good set of evaluation mechanisms (again, not just metrics), we don't have to fall back on some indefinite mindset about 'doing better'; we can actually demand that products and services be designed and adhere to basic principles. These principles will probably be somewhat subjective and culturally contingent, but that doesn't discount that they can also be grounded in neuroscience, broadly accepted notions of morality, and tunable according to cultural and situational factors.

Does this make sense?

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