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The Never Married, a New Normal

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Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#81

Post by giantg2 »

jeroenhd wrote: post #73
giantg2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems very biased to me since it's often that both parents make career sacrifices, not just one. Even if we accept what you're saying, that still doesn't address why this should be legal. You even say "want", so it is a choice. There's absolutely no reason that an able-bodied person of sound mind can't support themself. The state forcing another person to pay for that person's higher standard of living is absurd…

> This seems very biased to me since it's often that both parents make career sacrifices, not just one. With adoption, maybe, but carrying and bearing a child has a life-altering impact on a woman's body. It's not like you can give birth and go back to the office on Monday. It takes months to recover and even after that you likely won't be at full performance like you were before the pregnancy. Common side effects li…

"It takes months to recover and even after that you likely won't be at full performance like you were before the pregnancy. ... Quality of life is also quite terrible for the last while before giving birth, not just because of changes in physical size but also the lack of sleep and what a mental impact that could easily be described as mental illness if it wouldn't coincide with pregnancy."

That's not a typical experience. Please don't cherry pick. Otherwise I can cherry pick the other direction and say my wife was working from the hospital bed, and that there is a video of a woman running a mile or something like that while pregnant with her second child and bearing her prior pregnancy record. I'm so tired of this emotionally driven BS.

"Common side effects like post partum depression can easily linger for years if not given time and treatment."

This is a medical disability and should be handled as such. Same for men suffering from depression or anxiety from the pressures of providing for a family.

"The notion that two people make equal sacrifices when they have a child is laughable."

It's going to vary by situation, but you clearly aren't using a systems thinking approach to see the whole picture. It seems you're stuck on the typical indoctrination material. You still haven't answered anything about the actual topic of alimony. For example, what happens when the woman didn't have a career to begin with and had no real prospects? They didn't sacrifice anything career-wise. Different people have different earning potentials. I believe it's unethical to allow a system where someone can marry and take more from someone else than they could make on their own. I also believe this applies equally.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#82

Post by throwaway1492 »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #69
gameman144 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can speak to this in some degree: marriage is much more significant than a negotiated commitment for me personally. A negotiated commitment takes a specific form (the terms of the negotiation) but a marriage defines a commitment to be committed . I've heard some folks of my generation say things like "we got divorced because we fell out of love", which sharply contrasts with my view of marriage and falls more in li…

Having known unhappily married and religious family (and leaving the faith myself), I can understand folks falling permanently out of love. And IMO they're likely better apart than locked in decades of fruitless trying. Anyway, thanks for sharing, and I'd agree that a frivolous marriage sounds like a pointless exercise.

Falling in or out of love is really a lot of fantasy BS though really. Disney marketing. Anyone in a long term relationship doesn’t love the other all the time, wether married or not. Marriage is about declaring to your social group and each other you’ve decided to strive and commit to something greater than yourself.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#83

Post by giantg2 »

jeroenhd wrote: post #68
giantg2 wrote: post #8

"In fact, most never-married individuals come to see me for help dealing with parents or family members who insist that they live a more conventional lifestyle, not because they are unhappy with their choice of marital status, a lot of married people cannot say the same." That took an unexpected, refreshing, turn. It seems to me that the legal system around marriage is outdated and flawed compared to societal norms t…

Alimony is essential in cultures and marriages where one person gets to make a career for themselves and the other does the household chores, takes care of the children, and so forth. It's also essential in places where having a child severely decreases your chances of making a career for yourself. Think places where there's no guaranteed parental leave, or where there's only one parent who gets parental leave (makin…

"Alimony is essential in cultures and marriages where one person gets to make a career for themselves and the other does the household chores, takes care of the children, and so forth."

There are many cultures in the US. They way you describe it seems very old fashioned, which is not that common these days.

I'd rather see alimony removed. If you do that, people will choose arrangements that better suit them. If you leave this archaic system in place, it will promote less efficient decisions and continue to pose the other problems in the asymmetrical relationship you describe.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#84

Post by giantg2 »

dleslie wrote: post #45
dzogchen wrote: post #2

In the Netherlands, there is virtually no societal difference between people that are in a long-term relationship and live together, and married people. To the point that people call themselves husband and wife if they technically 'just' live together. My German girlfriend was shocked to learn this, in other countries (and cultures) marriage really is more of a 'thing'.

In BC, Canada, there is no practical legal difference between marriage and long term cohabitation. Not getting married and living together is rather normal, and comes with the same risk of financial segmentation and alimony or child support.

Some states in the US have similar common law marriages.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#85

Post by throwaway1492 »

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #79

Marriage happens in the heart. I perceive the big event as the opposite of something healthy. The need for a legal thing is resolved in Canada: if you live together for 1 year, that's basically equivalent to being married. I have been living with my partner for 13 years (I'm 34), we both work from home so that's some 24 x 365 x 13 hours together. I occasionally ask her to marry me, for fun, and she says yes. At times…

> But really after living together for that long, does that even matter?

FYI she’s not joking, you should surprise her and do it.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#86

Post by giantg2 »

jitl wrote: post #10

My partner and I have been together for 7 years, we bought a house together, haven’t found a compelling reason to get married. Marriage is a complex and binding contract that for two high earners is a tax disadvantage. The most prominent benefits I’ve learned are some situations around visitation rights, and avoiding being compelled to testify against your spouse. It comes from a very dubious history of the husband e…

"My partner and I have been together for 7 years, we bought a house together, haven’t found a compelling reason to get married."

Depending on your location you might already be married in a common law marriage.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#87

Post by dragonwriter »

giantg2 wrote: post #86
jitl wrote: post #10

My partner and I have been together for 7 years, we bought a house together, haven’t found a compelling reason to get married. Marriage is a complex and binding contract that for two high earners is a tax disadvantage. The most prominent benefits I’ve learned are some situations around visitation rights, and avoiding being compelled to testify against your spouse. It comes from a very dubious history of the husband e…

"My partner and I have been together for 7 years, we bought a house together, haven’t found a compelling reason to get married." Depending on your location you might already be married in a common law marriage.

> Depending on your location you might already be married in a common law marriage.

Generally, where common law or informal marriage is recognized at all, it requires both shared intent to marry and publicly presenting as married. I know I’ve seen fiction where it requires little more than cohabitation, but that’s not a real thing.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#88

Post by Fire-Dragon-DoL »

throwaway1492 wrote: post #85
Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #79

Marriage happens in the heart. I perceive the big event as the opposite of something healthy. The need for a legal thing is resolved in Canada: if you live together for 1 year, that's basically equivalent to being married. I have been living with my partner for 13 years (I'm 34), we both work from home so that's some 24 x 365 x 13 hours together. I occasionally ask her to marry me, for fun, and she says yes. At times…

> But really after living together for that long, does that even matter? FYI she’s not joking, you should surprise her and do it.

We discussed that in a serious context too, so I know what she thinks on the matter.

We also didn't want to deal with the additional cost of being married but not being citizens yet of the country we would marry in (we are now citizens though).

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#90

Post by ameminator »

throwaway1492 wrote: post #49

I’ll risk it and defend marriage to this crowd. To me getting married was about getting out of myself. As someone who got married later in life, I’d spent decades living only for myself, doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. Relationships were shallow and lasted only so long as convenient. By choosing to get married and intentional build a family, I knew I was sacrificing a lot of ego and choosing to give…

I can sacrifice my ego through meditation and acts of charity/volunteer work. No need to risk half of my current assets and future income on the whims of some potentially capricious other person, who probably doesn't like me very much anyways. Good luck to you, however.
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