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The XY Problem (2014)

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Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#81

Post by ridgered4 »

edude03 wrote: post #66

My biggest frustration when asking for help is somewhat similar problem where others offer solutions that sound simplier but are more complicated in practice for example Me: I'm having an issue setting up a feature in kubernetes Foo: use bash instead it's much simpler and you can solve your problem with one setting Me: ah ok, let me tell my team of 70 devs we're uninstalling kubernetes and writing our own orchestrato…

Frylock: Have you seen my towel?

Master Shake: Just use a paper towel.

Frylock: I'm taking a bath.

Master Shake: They're right in the kitchen, just go get 'em!

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#82

Post by reportgunner »

edude03 wrote: post #66

My biggest frustration when asking for help is somewhat similar problem where others offer solutions that sound simplier but are more complicated in practice for example Me: I'm having an issue setting up a feature in kubernetes Foo: use bash instead it's much simpler and you can solve your problem with one setting Me: ah ok, let me tell my team of 70 devs we're uninstalling kubernetes and writing our own orchestrato…

Would you prefer that Foo who (let's assume) doesn't know how to solve this in kubernetes would have stayed quiet?

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#83

Post by tzs »

pie_flavor wrote: post #72
resonious wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the whole premise of the "XY" problem seems like it was written up by someone who regulars Stack Overflow. It's pretty frustrating when the highest-upvotes answer to a question is "actually you don't want to do that. do something else instead".

The goal of asking a question is not to get the exact answer to the words you spoke, it is to solve the problem the question is inspired by. It's a funny psychological thing, though, where people perfectly comfortable with the idea they don't know the answer to a question are easily offended by the implication that they don't know what question would lead to a solution, even though the foundational knowledge to answe…

> Experienced people who really have the question, understand XY just fine and start off with the context, but are happy to provide more; experienced people who say they are offended at common assumptions of XY tend to be in complete denial about legitimate cases of XY.

That's not how it works on Stackoverflow and similar sites. Here's what happens when an experienced person who really does have the question, understands XY just fine, provides context, and is willing and able to provide more context is needed tries to get an answer on Stackoverflow.

1. They do a search and find that people have asked X before on Stackoverflow.

2. They read those questions and answers and find that in all of them the answerers decided that it was an XY problem and answered Y. Maybe the answers were right or maybe they were wrong, but in either case nobody answered X.

3. They post a new question asking X, explaining that the existing questions and answers do not apply because the person actually needs X and provides sufficient context to show this.

4. The question quickly gets closed as a duplicate of one or more of the others.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#84

Post by marcosdumay »

matsemann wrote: post #25
relix wrote: post #8

I often encounter the opposite. I would have a complex problem that I can legitimately solve by something reasonably simple yet I don’t posses the expertise on. Asking how to do Y, I need to spend an godawful amount of time wasting to convince people that no, it really is not an XY problem, and could we just focus on the literal problem description, which you could answer in like 3 minutes, instead of you trying to s…

I'm sorry, but if people often do this to you, maybe reflect on them actually being right? Or that you're legitimately asking a stupid question given your self-proclaimed lack of expertise? People don't answer that way to be smug or so. They do it because the thankless person they're spending their own free time helping will just come back with a new asinine question the moment one answers their posed question. It's…

> they're spending their own free time helping

Oh, man, if it's such a bother, just don't. Nobody is forcing you to spend your own free time.

But well, let's be clear. This is a Stack Overflow problem only. And it's Stack Overflow only because every interaction on that site includes a veiled threat of "do what I say or I'll make sure nobody ever answers your question and you are blocked away from this site".

Any unreasonable comment on a random forum is just a bunch of text you can jump over. Any unreasonable comment on SO is a demand from unforgiving authority that people do your bullshit. People have every right to be pissed of the people making those comments.

> If perhaps you're the one in a million case

From the answers I see on SO, the odds there are around 80% that you are wrong.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#85

Post by haswell »

relix wrote: post #8

I often encounter the opposite. I would have a complex problem that I can legitimately solve by something reasonably simple yet I don’t posses the expertise on. Asking how to do Y, I need to spend an godawful amount of time wasting to convince people that no, it really is not an XY problem, and could we just focus on the literal problem description, which you could answer in like 3 minutes, instead of you trying to s…

I think this highlights that the usefulness of the XY problem framing will depend on context.

As a platform product manager working with customers (both internal and external/paying), the most important thing I can do is know with certainty what problem I’m trying to solve and why. Maybe it’s annoying right now, but it ensures we don’t spend 6 months building something that solves nothing. I can’t count the number of times someone asked for features instead of describing their problem and after returning to the problem it quickly became apparent that the feature ask was not the only path forward and probably not the best path forward.

In the context of engineers seeking help from other engineers, I can understand why this can quickly become something else.

As with all things, context matters. Don’t insist on understanding X to the nth degree just because you encountered xyproblem.info. But don’t assume that someone trying to understand X is just trying to assert their superiority.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#86

Post by sowbug »

edude03 wrote: post #66

My biggest frustration when asking for help is somewhat similar problem where others offer solutions that sound simplier but are more complicated in practice for example Me: I'm having an issue setting up a feature in kubernetes Foo: use bash instead it's much simpler and you can solve your problem with one setting Me: ah ok, let me tell my team of 70 devs we're uninstalling kubernetes and writing our own orchestrato…

Sometimes everyone acknowledges and wishes that solving X were the path forward, but for political, inertial, technical-debt, financial, or stubborn customer-related reasons, we must think only about Y.

These conversations often end with the responder saying "then you should change teams." Which might be the ultimate XY answer.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#87

Post by matsemann »

marcosdumay wrote: post #84
matsemann wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but if people often do this to you, maybe reflect on them actually being right? Or that you're legitimately asking a stupid question given your self-proclaimed lack of expertise? People don't answer that way to be smug or so. They do it because the thankless person they're spending their own free time helping will just come back with a new asinine question the moment one answers their posed question. It's…

> they're spending their own free time helping Oh, man, if it's such a bother, just don't. Nobody is forcing you to spend your own free time. But well, let's be clear. This is a Stack Overflow problem only. And it's Stack Overflow only because every interaction on that site includes a veiled threat of "do what I say or I'll make sure nobody ever answers your question and you are blocked away from this site". Any unre…

From me reviewing thousands of questions in the review queue, odds are you're the one in the wrong. You perhaps only see the cases that actually survived.

When you have to weed through a hundred questions to see the one of any actual quality, it's no wonder people seem a bit jaded. I know it's a meme here that SO is super bad, but no one would visit if it didn't have the strict moderation. It would be a waste field of low quality stuff.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#88

Post by superbatfish »

reportgunner wrote: post #82
edude03 wrote: post #66

My biggest frustration when asking for help is somewhat similar problem where others offer solutions that sound simplier but are more complicated in practice for example Me: I'm having an issue setting up a feature in kubernetes Foo: use bash instead it's much simpler and you can solve your problem with one setting Me: ah ok, let me tell my team of 70 devs we're uninstalling kubernetes and writing our own orchestrato…

Would you prefer that Foo who (let's assume) doesn't know how to solve this in kubernetes would have stayed quiet?

Personally, I think I would, at least at first.

If someone without the necessary expertise chimes in with an unhelpful answer within minutes of a question being asked, then everyone who comes after must check their answer before deciding if the user still needs help.

But even worse, I think potential responders on StackOverflow may not read the question at all because it will be listed as already having an answer. It won’t be an accepted answer, sure. But it still disincentivizes attention to the question. (I know it certainly disincentivizes me when I go looking for SO questions to answer.)

If a question has gone unanswered for hours or days, then sure — offer whatever advice you’ve got. But before then, you’re just adding noise, and actually reducing the chances that the OP will get what they were looking for.

Re: The XY Problem (2014)

#89

Post by rendaw »

matsemann wrote: post #25
relix wrote: post #8

I often encounter the opposite. I would have a complex problem that I can legitimately solve by something reasonably simple yet I don’t posses the expertise on. Asking how to do Y, I need to spend an godawful amount of time wasting to convince people that no, it really is not an XY problem, and could we just focus on the literal problem description, which you could answer in like 3 minutes, instead of you trying to s…

I'm sorry, but if people often do this to you, maybe reflect on them actually being right? Or that you're legitimately asking a stupid question given your self-proclaimed lack of expertise? People don't answer that way to be smug or so. They do it because the thankless person they're spending their own free time helping will just come back with a new asinine question the moment one answers their posed question. It's…

Even if they're wrong, why not answer their question as stated?

If they're asking how to delete all the files on their root disk, tell them how, they can try it, and either you've solved their problem or they've learned something valuable. But more importantly, maybe someone else will come along who actually does want to delete all the files on their root disk and be helped by your answer after the fact.

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