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The drama in trying to convert election PDFs to Spreadsheets

markessien.com

81–90 of 148 posts

Re: The drama in trying to convert election PDFs to Spreadsheets

#81

I still don't understand how we ended up with PDF as sort of standard to archive data. PDF is already pretty bad for things like manuals but for things like spreadsheets we basically collect the data, then we destroy all the structure by putting it in into POF, and later on we painstakingly try to restore the data from PDF which is often almost impossible to do with accuracy. It just shows that bad solutions often wi…

I've thought about this and come round to think that the flaws of PDF are actually essential to the success of the document format.

- Non-responsive (compared to HTML). Allows PDFs to serve as a common standard between other document formats with different resizing logic, like Latex and Word.

- Difficultly of network access from code running inside document. Allows PDFs to generally operate offline. Nobody's brave enough to try to write a single page application in a PDF

- Destroying data structure. Allows forward compatibility with anything that can be displayed statically on a screen. New applications can have different ideas about how tables, text or charts should work but if there's static visual output then it'll convert to PDF. Awareness of say, the structure of tables is precisely what makes it so difficult for say google sheets and excel to stay compatible with each other's new table features. If somebody develops a new language with new characters not even in Unicode it'll still work on a PDF

It's also worth noting that most PDF limitations have the characteristic of making things hard but not absolutely impossible. These escape hatches prevent people with hard requirements from actually moving to a new format.

If it were truly impossible to get invoice data from PDFs people might've shifted to a different format for business transactions. But if it's merely difficult some company will come up with an API that works as a good enough extraction solution whose cost is justified by the other compatibility benefits of PDFs, so the ecosystem stays with PDFs.

Re: The drama in trying to convert election PDFs to Spreadsheets

#82
post #51

Is the access to the original photos open? It might be fit for a good Kaggle competition, although maybe a little too late for this current election.

From the article, it seems like the rush was to collect enough evidence to file a challenge within the legal timeframe. With a challenge filed, it seems like there is a bit more time to verify claims + other evidence. (I know nothing of the system of government there, but) -- it seems like the prudent thing to do would be for the courts to mandate a neutral verification of each of those paper sheets. (ie, 10 trusted representatives from each party re-key the figures manually).

Re: The drama in trying to convert election PDFs to Spreadsheets

#83

So the bug where the first voting sheet shown to a user was from the same 10% of the photos turned out to be a feature, serving as a CAPTCHA of sorts to weed out the bad actors from the good. If memory serves, some CAPTCHA techniques include showing two numbers to transcribe, where one’s value is already known. If that number is transcribed incorrectly, then the other number’s result isn’t used, and the CAPTCHA fails…

This approach was part of their strategy: > Then we started showing some results we knew to the bots - if they entered wrong numbers, we would stop accepting the results.

It seems to me that when combating bots or hackers, the wrong approach is to provide immediate negative feedback. Giving an immediate error code lets them know that their current strategy is not working and to try something different.

It seems like a better approach would be to make them think you were accepting the results, when in fact they were going to the bit bucket. Hackers trying to get into your corporate database should be presented with a table full of false (but plausible) data rather than an error. Let them waste time trying to use all those fake SS numbers or account numbers before they figure out they got duped.

Re: The drama in trying to convert election PDFs to Spreadsheets

#84

The people who cast the votes don't decide an election, the people who count the votes do. - Stalin.

In case the downright cartoonish character of this quotation made anyone else wonder if it were fake...

that quotation is, indeed, fake: https://web.archive.org/web/20220128105324/https://www.polit...

Re: The drama in trying to convert election PDFs to Spreadsheets

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

these are just photos embedded in a PDF, which actually isn't that bad an idea, because it lets you scan multiple pages and join them together as a 'document' (not sure if the documents in OP had several pages, but if you've scanned/photographed a multi-page document, PDF is not that bad of a solution)

A better option would be to use the TIFF format. You can use it as a container format to store lossless and lossy image formats, and handles multiple images in a single container. It was the standard for scanners until PDF seemed to dominate the scene.

> It was the standard for scanners until PDF seemed to dominate the scene.

Probably because it's much easier (for average users with few tools and skills) to print a PDF than to print any sort of non-page-based (e.g., image) file format and have the resulting sheet of paper match the scanned sheet of paper in terms of scale, orientation, position -- assuming both sheets are the same dimensions. Essentially using the file as an intermediary for physical copying of standard paper documents.

Re: The drama in trying to convert election PDFs to Spreadsheets

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a great example of why electronic voting is important and can help secure democracy. If those in power are against change, I wouldn't want to have to put my trust in electronic voting if I was hoping for change. I was left with the impression that it is the paper records in this story that led to the unravelling of an attempt to forge the results. Long live paper ballots.

> I was left with the impression that it is the paper records in this story that led to the unravelling of an attempt to forge the results. The manual tallying of paper records is what lead to the attempt to forge the results in the first place. If the results were electronically tallied to generate an official result, then they wouldn't need to recount the whole election to verify the result, just doing a statistica…

How do you recount electronic-only elections?

Re: The drama in trying to convert election PDFs to Spreadsheets

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This approach was part of their strategy: > Then we started showing some results we knew to the bots - if they entered wrong numbers, we would stop accepting the results.

It seems to me that when combating bots or hackers, the wrong approach is to provide immediate negative feedback. Giving an immediate error code lets them know that their current strategy is not working and to try something different. It seems like a better approach would be to make them think you were accepting the results, when in fact they were going to the bit bucket. Hackers trying to get into your corporate dat…

For sure, shadow-banning is a great strat here. Raise their costs, and don’t give them any signal to learn from.

Assuming you have the bandwidth to absorb the bot load, which sounded like it was an issue here.

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