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Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

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Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#81

Post by roenxi »

"Normal" people see other people as technologies - you sort of give your problem to the person, maybe mix some money in and then the problem goes away. This is how the relationship with people like lawyers, doctors, salespeople, etc, etc work.

They know that engineers (and programmers) are in the same rough class as all the other professionals. These conversations showcase the confusion as they try to figure out what problem programmers are there to solve. Other engineering disciplines also suffer from this - engineering is a subtle art. Nobody knows what we actually do except the rest of the brotherhood :(.

The first example is a really good showcase. They really don't want to be walked through how to solve their problem. The point of the specialist is supposed to be that they solve the problem in exchange for payment. They don't understand that programmers are really all about adjusting the cost of taking action rather than acting directly.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#82

Post by m-ee »

voidfunc wrote: post #20
nicolas_t wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of college grads don't know how to operate in a linux dev environment? That'd be an immediate no-hire from me.

Most lol. You only hiring MIT and Stanford grads?

Stanford ain’t gonna teach you Unix either. I think they at least teach git usage in the intro classes now, but certainly did not while was there. Wasn’t a CS major but took a number of classes.

The only class I took that touched on anything practical for the working world was “programming for scientists and engineers”, CME211 I think? And most people only took it because it counted for grad level math credits.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#83

Post by gregjor »

strken wrote: post #56
gregjor wrote: post #27

Not really a novel observation, nor surprising. The secret world of auto mechanics: “Just change the air filter.” The secret world of electricians: “Turn the circuit breaker off and back on.” The secret worlds of chefs, carpenters, doctors, lawyers, … I could go on and on. Why would programmers expect people not invested in programming to know this stuff, or care? I only care about ignorance of jargon and specific sk…

I think the interesting bit isn't the jargon, it's the parallel but separate paths of computer use. Changing an car's air filter is obviously different from driving. Flipping a circuit breaker is like flipping a switch, just for the whole house, and also it happens automatically if you anger the switch by plugging too much stuff in or dropping the toaster in the sink. Both of them make sense intuitively. Changing a .…

A non-programmer wouldn’t use anything we’d call a toolchain. They would use a WYSIWYG editor like Word, and still not understand formatting or how to print.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#84

Post by sideshowb »

ncpa-cpl wrote: post #47
fcatalan wrote: post #13

I find a version of this even with fresh out of college programmers. They just know how to type Java on an IDE, maybe some SQL (using some graphical front end), some HTML/CSS. They can't operate in a Linux dev environment at all, can't use the command line or exit vi or perform any kind of simple shell based automation or use git without a plugin for their IDE. And they also are reluctant to learn because they are se…

> I find a version of this even with fresh out of college programmers. I've noticed something with boot camp programmers too. Something that may have changed is that newer graduates may have studied programming because "it pays well", and not because they were computer hobbyists before deciding what to study. I've been on meetings with some programmers that didn't know how to use a gui ftp client or how to manually u…

> newer graduates may have studied programming because "it pays well",

Define new. Programming has been known to pay well since at least the 1990s.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#85

Post by mlatu »

nindalf wrote: post #78

Literally everything I write is in Markdown because it’s so simple to me. I use it for blogposts, presentations, documentation, todos, internet comments. But this article doesn’t strike a chord with me. The author fails to understand that it seems easy to us because we’re familiar with it. Of course we know how to transform it into PDF or HTML. But this knowledge isn’t basic, and it’s understandable that people want…

> Excel is powerful, but it’s not easy to learn. It only seems that way to people who already know how it works.

this right there.

except, it IS easy to learn actually. it's visual, you can click around and find out. if you forget the spelling of some formula, no probs, there is a help button.

the interface is what makes it easier, markdown is also an interface. except it's not AS exposed to the user as excel is.

people dont want to read manuals or consult documentation, they want to hit the ground running.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#86

Post by arka2147483647 »

fcatalan wrote: post #13

I find a version of this even with fresh out of college programmers. They just know how to type Java on an IDE, maybe some SQL (using some graphical front end), some HTML/CSS. They can't operate in a Linux dev environment at all, can't use the command line or exit vi or perform any kind of simple shell based automation or use git without a plugin for their IDE. And they also are reluctant to learn because they are se…

You forget the immense depth of everything that is computers today. It simply is not possible to learn everything, even basics of everything, in the time to get a decree.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#87

Post by hawski »

nindalf wrote: post #78

Literally everything I write is in Markdown because it’s so simple to me. I use it for blogposts, presentations, documentation, todos, internet comments. But this article doesn’t strike a chord with me. The author fails to understand that it seems easy to us because we’re familiar with it. Of course we know how to transform it into PDF or HTML. But this knowledge isn’t basic, and it’s understandable that people want…

I wouldn't say that Excel is harder to learn. I was thought the basics of it in primary school. I don't think Panadas could be thought at the same level, you need to know Python first and that is a mountain, even if there are much higher mountains.

With Excel you mostly need to know about cell addressing, =, dragging corner of selection, $, ranges and some basic formulas (that currently are much easier to explore than when I was first approaching the subject). That is, I think, around 80% of Excel as it is used, maybe even more.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#88

Post by scoutt »

vbezhenar wrote: post #72
fcatalan wrote: post #13

I find a version of this even with fresh out of college programmers. They just know how to type Java on an IDE, maybe some SQL (using some graphical front end), some HTML/CSS. They can't operate in a Linux dev environment at all, can't use the command line or exit vi or perform any kind of simple shell based automation or use git without a plugin for their IDE. And they also are reluctant to learn because they are se…

There are three variants: #1. They are just stupid. #2. They don't care about work other than bare minimum to not get fired. They have better things in their life to care about. #3. They are as smart as you are, but they put their efforts elsewhere that you don't directly observe. May be they don't know how to operate Linux environment, but they spent days reading about DSP math and they can apply this knowledge to o…

You forgot one variant: they just don't like it.

Like me. I use the command line all the day, compiling AOSP and kernels, and drivers, firmware, and all kind of related things for embedded. But I don't like it.

To me, it feels archaic and counterintuitive (I'm autodidact). Same goes for command line editors or Vi, Vim, Emacs, etc.

It's not 1985 anymore. Microsoft and Apple built an empire based on coherent (up to some point) UIs. They succeded because they might were up to something.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#89

Post by _moof »

voidfunc wrote: post #20
nicolas_t wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of college grads don't know how to operate in a linux dev environment? That'd be an immediate no-hire from me.

Most lol. You only hiring MIT and Stanford grads?

I was taught how to get around a UNIX box in CS 101 at a state school.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#90

Post by crdrost »

mlatu wrote: post #85
nindalf wrote: post #78

Literally everything I write is in Markdown because it’s so simple to me. I use it for blogposts, presentations, documentation, todos, internet comments. But this article doesn’t strike a chord with me. The author fails to understand that it seems easy to us because we’re familiar with it. Of course we know how to transform it into PDF or HTML. But this knowledge isn’t basic, and it’s understandable that people want…

> Excel is powerful, but it’s not easy to learn. It only seems that way to people who already know how it works. this right there. except, it IS easy to learn actually. it's visual, you can click around and find out. if you forget the spelling of some formula, no probs, there is a help button. the interface is what makes it easier, markdown is also an interface. except it's not AS exposed to the user as excel is. peo…

Yeah, I want to emphasize those aspects.

• Excel is based on a simpler model of computation, something like the unification ideas in logic programming, state is not named and minimally expressive, etc. You want a looping construct? Better autofill a column or something!

• Excel automatically includes printf-style debugging of every object in the system; that is the default state of the system and you have to hide columns you don't want to see.

• Excel has no compilation or run step. The document is living and when you change things you immediately see the results of that change.

This means that the programming model in Excel becomes much more amenable to the results-oriented mind. Decide on an incremental goal, then calculate a bunch of results “the long way” and then massage the formula until it gives a result that matches your manual calculations. Repeat as desired.

It's like clay, basically. You sculpt it to look right and then you sculpt the next piece to build on that and so on.

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