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Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

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Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#81

Post by Jensson »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #79
pessimizer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Players will detect drama being injected into their randomness (unless it is very gently and rarely done), and over time they will start to be able to predict dice rolls [edit: or even learn to shape their responses to trick the model into generating the rolls they want.] That will ruin the game.

Xcom 2 make hits more likely the more you miss because fair proba was frustrating the players when they missed a shot with 95% of success. So I'm not sure you are right.

A 95% shot will never miss in Xcom 2 unless you play on harder difficulties. It multiplies hit chance by 1.1 so 91% is 100%.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#82

Post by [deleted] »

Jensson wrote: post #81
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xcom 2 make hits more likely the more you miss because fair proba was frustrating the players when they missed a shot with 95% of success. So I'm not sure you are right.

A 95% shot will never miss in Xcom 2 unless you play on harder difficulties. It multiplies hit chance by 1.1 so 91% is 100%.

[deleted]

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#83

Post by AtlasBarfed »

zug_zug wrote: post #45
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #21

Okay, this is probably the right place to say this: You can't play D&D with GPT-3/3.5, but you absolutely can with GPT-4. GPT-4 is a solid DM. GPT-3 couldn't remember what it said 30 minutes ago, and was basically incapable of planning, so unless you want a simple dungeon rougelike-esque adventure, it'll lose track of things and start hallucinating. It will also sometimes forget the rules. My initial impressions are…

Played a solo-campgain with GPT4 for 1-2 hours yesterday, summary: - Created character sheet for me, at desired level with spells and abilities - Was able to add a cat to the game upon request - Took hints. - Was an outstanding writer, far better than any DM in terms of sensory descriptions and articulation - Had to ask it to only tell 5 paragraphs at a time - Performed combat rolls and math, all apparently correctly…

1) is there a sample transcript? YOu say OUTSTANDING WRITER and I think GRR Martin.

2) an interesting runaround copyright. GPT4 probably has every "d20" product and others ingested for processing and use.

Look people, here's the ultimate test: write Winds of Winter and Dream of Spring for us.

Between all the reddit /r/asoiaf and fantheories plus all the other works of fantasy, it should be able to do some facsimile.

Honestly GRR should be cranking out a chapter or two a day with GPT4 help.

There should be entire eras filled in by GRR with edited GPT4 output.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#84

Post by Asooka »

Someone wrote: post #63
zug_zug wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Played a solo-campgain with GPT4 for 1-2 hours yesterday, summary: - Created character sheet for me, at desired level with spells and abilities - Was able to add a cat to the game upon request - Took hints. - Was an outstanding writer, far better than any DM in terms of sensory descriptions and articulation - Had to ask it to only tell 5 paragraphs at a time - Performed combat rolls and math, all apparently correctly…

Also, “asked it give more random rolls and it seemingly did for a while” seems a problem area to me, not as much for that “for a while” as for the fact that it complied. What happens when you ask it to give you more favorable rolls or to let you kill a monster with your bare hands? This is a case where Asimov’s laws of robotics would have to be bent a bit. If you ask an AI to let you win a single-player game, should…

> Asimov’s laws of robotics

This comes up every time AI is mentioned and I feel like people are drawing entirely the wrong conclusion from Asimov. First and foremost he designed his laws so conflict was inevitable. The laws are designed to produce interesting fiction, not to be a template to follow in real life. They are as much a manual as "1984" is, that is - not at all. Asimov's laws should have no bearing on AI in reality except to inform people to do something different.

So broadly I am agreeing with you - AI should follow laws that are more rich than Asimov's made up universe. The part that irks me is that people even consider using them at all. It's fiction, not reality. The consequences of an action in a person's imagination rarely match the consequences in reality. The entirety of science is an effort to produce word-based imaginary systems and processes, whose outcomes match the outcomes in reality. You cannot just substitute one man's imagination for the missing science of AI reasoning.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#85

Post by Asooka »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #40
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #21

Okay, this is probably the right place to say this: You can't play D&D with GPT-3/3.5, but you absolutely can with GPT-4. GPT-4 is a solid DM. GPT-3 couldn't remember what it said 30 minutes ago, and was basically incapable of planning, so unless you want a simple dungeon rougelike-esque adventure, it'll lose track of things and start hallucinating. It will also sometimes forget the rules. My initial impressions are…

When you think of the content of the books in Baldur's Gate and the sheer amount of human hours poured into something just to give background to the game, this is going to save indeed a lot of time. But on the other hand, just like open world was a terrible curse with hundred of games feeling empty, I'm afraid we will see a wave of games with a lot of generated but eventually uninteresting content because this is so…

What's missing is overt structure. More or less the same reason as to why AI can't draw hands - there is no "understanding" of the fact that a hand is a rectangle with five sticks coming out of it in a specific arrangement. For a human, that is all that's needed to recognise a hand, i.e.

            |   |
        |   |   |
    |   |   |   |
    |   |   |   |
    |   |   |   |
    |   |   |   |
    +---+---+---+
    |           |
    |           |
    |           |    |
    |           |    .
    |           |   /
    |           |  /
    +-----------+-+
This is a (very crude) hand. This registers as a hand for you, because it has the structure of a hand. This is less similar to a photorealistic hand than a 6-fingered AI hand, objectively, however it fits the human understanding of what a hand is supposed to be, because it has the right kind of shapes in the right relations to one another. In the same vein, if we could get the AI to understand the structure of a story, it should be able to DM session by session, starting from a high level abstract idea and refining it based on player actions, incorporating player input into the game. I'm not sure if hierarchical abstract reasoning should be forcibly added to the model, or if it can be emergent in a specific configuration, but if we figure out how to build an AI with that, then it should be able to produce something a lot more sensible.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#86

Post by tomlagier »

zug_zug wrote: post #45
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #21

Okay, this is probably the right place to say this: You can't play D&D with GPT-3/3.5, but you absolutely can with GPT-4. GPT-4 is a solid DM. GPT-3 couldn't remember what it said 30 minutes ago, and was basically incapable of planning, so unless you want a simple dungeon rougelike-esque adventure, it'll lose track of things and start hallucinating. It will also sometimes forget the rules. My initial impressions are…

Played a solo-campgain with GPT4 for 1-2 hours yesterday, summary: - Created character sheet for me, at desired level with spells and abilities - Was able to add a cat to the game upon request - Took hints. - Was an outstanding writer, far better than any DM in terms of sensory descriptions and articulation - Had to ask it to only tell 5 paragraphs at a time - Performed combat rolls and math, all apparently correctly…

I wonder if there's something that you can do as you're nearing the end of the context window to summarize the "state" of the world so far and put it into context so that the model always has context on the most important details. I'd imagine that you'd lose some of the minor stuff by compressing context this way, but, hey, humans forget minor details too.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#87

Post by dpezet »

dragonwriter wrote: post #17
crooked-v wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foundry VTT is excellent, but it's also not a map creator, so it really doesn't fit the article. Same with Roll20.

The article doesn’t seem to have any consistent idea of what a map maker is, including map generators , map drawing tools , and VTT that mainly let you use maps. And kind of odd not to mention CC3 or any of the rest of the ProFantasy suite when it comes to drawing tools.

I blame ProFantasy for that. Their software has an insanely steep learning curve and the UI is extremely unintuitive. I have been using their software for 15 years and only have a basic proficiency with it. I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone when tools like Dungeondraft and Inkarnate can have new users creating beautiful maps on day 1.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#88

Post by katabasis »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #21

Okay, this is probably the right place to say this: You can't play D&D with GPT-3/3.5, but you absolutely can with GPT-4. GPT-4 is a solid DM. GPT-3 couldn't remember what it said 30 minutes ago, and was basically incapable of planning, so unless you want a simple dungeon rougelike-esque adventure, it'll lose track of things and start hallucinating. It will also sometimes forget the rules. My initial impressions are…

I run a small D&D group with a couple of friends. I don't know that I'd want to play in a campaign helmed by an AI dungeon master, but the idea of having some help generating plot, assets, etc. when I don't have a lot of time before a game session sounds amazing.

I tend to be an AI pessimist, but this seems like a good example of a way that AI could be used to supplement human creativity instead of just replacing it entirely.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#89

Post by bluefirebrand »

dagw wrote: post #75
bluefirebrand wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been seeing the opposite myself. In the 90s and 00s it was almost always about the minis and tactical gameplay. DnD 3.5 was a lot more numbers heavy so it kept a lot of the story people out of the game. Now DnD 5 the numbers have such a gentle, predictable curve with bounded accuracy and damage and stuff, you may as well ignore them because there's nothing exciting about rolling the dice anymore. So the story…

Another aspect I just thought about was that in 90s and 00s there was a lot more diversity of games that were popular. Most people I knew played at least 2 or 3 different games with very different styles and I knew lots of people who never played DnD. Now everybody I talk to seems to play DnD only. Just the fact that the tile is "D&D map makers..." instead of "RPG map makers..." is very telling.

Also true. Everyone I knew would have a game of Shadowrun or World of Darkness or whatever else if you wanted. At the very least there were Pathfinder groups.

But now I don't even see Pathfinder out there much.

I think DnD podcasts and webseries and such were incredibly successful in cementing DnD as the only game in town. They brought in a ton of new players who have only heard of DnD and only want to play DnD.

Re: Best D&D map makers for dungeons, cities and worlds

#90

Post by StrictDabbler »

katabasis wrote: post #88
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #21

Okay, this is probably the right place to say this: You can't play D&D with GPT-3/3.5, but you absolutely can with GPT-4. GPT-4 is a solid DM. GPT-3 couldn't remember what it said 30 minutes ago, and was basically incapable of planning, so unless you want a simple dungeon rougelike-esque adventure, it'll lose track of things and start hallucinating. It will also sometimes forget the rules. My initial impressions are…

I run a small D&D group with a couple of friends. I don't know that I'd want to play in a campaign helmed by an AI dungeon master, but the idea of having some help generating plot, assets, etc. when I don't have a lot of time before a game session sounds amazing. I tend to be an AI pessimist, but this seems like a good example of a way that AI could be used to supplement human creativity instead of just replacing it…

This whole thread has me re-evaluating my prior assessments of "Ender's Game" and the Mind Game it described.

When the book came out I was a child programmer and I had total contempt for the idea that a player could just decide to burrow into the eye of the giant and that the engine would generate a result.

I was used to Sierra games where you'd click an inventory item on something you saw and the game would tell you "there's nothing useful you can do with that."

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