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The Butlerian Jihad

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Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#81

Post by euroderf »

Slow_Hand wrote: post #73
litiholofan wrote: post #57

[flagged]

The story is set approx 20,000 years in humanity's future and many of the spiritual traditions of our age have combined into new permutations by the time of the book's story. Such examples are the ZenSunni or the Orange Catholics. I take the use of the term jihad to be a choice by Frank to add texture and imply how many human cultures have cross-pollinated. The particulars of these religions are rarely addressed in a…

IIRC the part about how mankind got to Arrakis (and elsewhere) before Guild FTL is kinda hand-wavey.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#82

Post by euroderf »

goatlover wrote: post #53
pstorm wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of how we treat ants or cockroaches. If they at all inconvenience us or even appear in our home, we kill them. We go as far as developing specialized poisons they take back to their nests to try to kill the whole colony. It isn't hard to envision a future where the intelligence gap between humans and AI is closer to humans vs ants than humans vs dogs.

Like how in the Expanse, Holden compares human civilization to an ant hill being paved over by a highway.

A-ha, the elusive connection to Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#83

Post by wordyskeleton »

euroderf wrote: post #80
Slow_Hand wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lasers do exist in the story, but they're not widely used in warfare because when a laser makes contact with a holtzmann shield (the personal shields that all of the characters employ) it causes a nuclear reaction that annihilates both parties and everyone in a large radius. This makes them extremely risky to use. There's a great moment in the book where a character sets a trap by engaging a shield and fleeing the ar…

All this implies that shields and/or "lasers" employ massive amounts of energy. Yet both are man-portable. What gives ?

big worm on sand planet make spice that give prophetic ability. yet this is not how worms work. what gives?

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#84

Post by lapcat »

woleium wrote: post #67
moshun wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely agree, it’s the book that makes so much of the story make sense and elevates the series beyond most other sci-fi / fantasy. Even now, 30 years after I first read it, I’m blown away by how much I refer back to the principles of leadership and human behavior discussed. Really well written work.

Have you read anything about Herbert's education and work? It may help you understand why he is so good.

"The Maker of Dune" adds a lot of personal insight to his work. https://www.amazon.com/Maker-Dune-Insights-Science-Fiction/d...

I used to have a copy but sold it at some point. Apparently it's hard to find now, given the very high price.

Update: The entire book is in the Internet Archive! https://archive.org/details/the-maker-of-dune-insights-of-a-...

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#85

Post by red-iron-pine »

sl0tr4cer wrote: post #74
keyle wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to agree. When I was younger I read the Dune series cover to cover, and it was almost transcending for my young self. I tried the prequels, book 1, never finished. I guess magic does not transcend the human flesh.

interesting to contrast Christopher Tolkien and Brian Herbert in their treatment of their fathers' literary inheritance

Chris Tolkien didn't really write anything new from whole cloth, he mostly deleted or married his father's notes and short writings; more editing than creating.

Brian Herbert wrote multiple books from scratch. His father left notes too, but nothing that would give him the ability to write multiple novels.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#86

Post by david38 »

Slow_Hand wrote: post #71
paranoidrobot wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are no lasers, It's been a long while since I read the books, but I watched the 2021 movie* more recently. If not lasers, what were the beams emitted by the space ships, and the portable beam weapon the Sardaukar soldiers when attacking the outpost? Or is that something the movie added?

Lasers do exist in the story, but they're not widely used in warfare because when a laser makes contact with a holtzmann shield (the personal shields that all of the characters employ) it causes a nuclear reaction that annihilates both parties and everyone in a large radius. This makes them extremely risky to use. There's a great moment in the book where a character sets a trap by engaging a shield and fleeing the ar…

This happens towards the end of Dune. It forces the Sardukar to proceed with extreme caution.

Lasers also attract worms with such intensity they cross territorial boundaries.

A brilliant way to say “yea, they exist, but not really” like the nuclear weapons of today.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#87

Post by david38 »

hackyhacky wrote: post #45
dbtc wrote: post #41

I've long held the first Dune novel high on my list of good books, but only recently I've gone through the following 6 (as audiobooks), and I highly recommend them. The scale of ideas and events absolutely dwarfs the first novel.

I loved the first book, but I found the sequels to offer diminishing returns. The fourth one, God Emperor of Dune, was such a joyless slog that I gave up.

God-Emperor is polarizing, but Heretics and Chapterhouse are action packed and have fascinating characters.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#88

Post by david38 »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #85
sl0tr4cer wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

interesting to contrast Christopher Tolkien and Brian Herbert in their treatment of their fathers' literary inheritance

Chris Tolkien didn't really write anything new from whole cloth, he mostly deleted or married his father's notes and short writings; more editing than creating. Brian Herbert wrote multiple books from scratch. His father left notes too, but nothing that would give him the ability to write multiple novels.

Nah, Brian seemingly put his name on it and outsourced the writing to Kevin Anderson. From the quality of story, it looks like he outsourced it to the highest bidder.

According to his bio notes, Brian is an “acclaimed author” in his own right. Why then outsource to the likes of Kevin Anderson?

He absolutely ruined the books and turned them into “churn them out” fiction.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#89

Post by djkivi »

woleium wrote: post #67
moshun wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely agree, it’s the book that makes so much of the story make sense and elevates the series beyond most other sci-fi / fantasy. Even now, 30 years after I first read it, I’m blown away by how much I refer back to the principles of leadership and human behavior discussed. Really well written work.

Have you read anything about Herbert's education and work? It may help you understand why he is so good.

Tim O'Reilly actually wrote a biography of Frank Herbert that people might find interesting:

https://www.oreilly.com/tim/herbert/

Edit: I see Tim O'Reilly was the editor of the "Maker of Dune" book mentioned here also.

Re: The Butlerian Jihad

#90

Post by teucris »

midoridensha wrote: post #65
teucris wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cats and dogs apparently evolved over thousands of years to be endearing to humans so we’d take care of them. How many cat/dog ancestors do you think were eaten by humans during that process?

No, they didn't. Dogs were intentionally bred by humans, with the "toy" breeds commonly seen now being very recent inventions. Cats, on the other hand, are barely any different from their wild ancestors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wildcat

That makes sense. But I think the broader point I was trying to make stands.
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