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California cancels salmon fishing season

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Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#81

Post by c54 »

myshpa wrote: post #65
jterrys wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But that animals are fellow beings, a lot like us in many ways. I didn't want pain, or someone to kill me, so I figured they didn't either. I respect your noble pursuit of not eating meat, and I have encountered arguments similar to yours enough times now that I feel compelled to respond in genuine kindness as someone who does like to eat meat (within "reason"). Animals are benignly cruel to each other beyond your i…

> Animals are benignly cruel to each other beyond your imagination https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/animals-eat-animals > They have a relatively peaceful, predation, free life after which you consume them https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/humane-meat

nice, thanks for the links

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#82

Post by 50 »

kposehn wrote: post #2

I've been Salmon fishing in California since I can remember. There are few things I love more than being on the water going for Kings as the sun comes up. I'm really bummed we won't have a season, but having more fish in the future is worth the short term cost.

Do you happen to know if there are any places in California to go fly fishing, if any? My curiosity deriving from David James Duncan's The River Why and Norman Maclean's A River Runs Through It.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#83

Post by nielsbot »

myshpa wrote: post #70
narrator wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law of supply and demand expects the marginal cost of each additional fish to be more expensive. What if it's not. What if it costs the same amount of money to catch fish until you catch the very last fish. Suddenly the price of fish jumps from $.03/fish to infinity. Some sort of quota system has to be implemented and enforced to not come to such an abrupt halt on a market like that. Fish is one thing, at least t…

"For example, Mitsubishi, a company which handles 35-40% of Japan’s imported Atlantic bluefin tuna, has been deep-freezing and stockpiling thousands of tons of bluefin each year, seeking to profit by selling bluefin at extremely steep prices in the future when the bluefin tuna is extinct or near extinction." https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/revealed-t... https://web.colby.edu/st297-global18/2019/01/2…

Won't this encourage fishermen to continue fishing bluefin at higher prices?

What a dark future: "Bluefun tuna is extinct in the wild but you can still eat it from Mitsubishi"

And then: "Today the last bluefin tuna in the history of the world was sold for $20M to a billionaire."

Something like that...

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#84

Post by beckler »

CalRobert wrote: post #39
yesenadam wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me ashamed to be human. Reading stuff like that, and thinking about what we do to cows, sheep, lambs, chickens, etc, it dawned on me a while ago that humans have no right to treat animals like they're just a bunch of cells to be treated however we want, like a serial killer treats their victims. But that animals are fellow beings, a lot like us in many ways. I didn't want pain, or someone to kill me, so I fi…

We moved to the Irish countryside and hearing the dairy cows wailing for their calves that have just been taken away from them is an uexpected meat/dairy deterrent.

When I was much younger, we had a donkey that had a breach birth, and the foal became stuck. It was awful, in every sense of the word. The foal ended up dying mid-birth, and we then did everything we could to save the mother. To the point where we were had a chain wrapped around the dead foal for pulling, and we had to cut up and break its bones to get it out.

We eventually saved the mother, but that donkey was truly scarred. For about two years, I would of said that donkey was clinically depressed. It really changed my perspective on just how intelligent animals actually are, and I’m sure they feel complex emotions just like us.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#85

Post by 14 »

rcpt wrote: post #44
myshpa wrote: post #15

It's not just the draughts. https://www.seaspiracy.org/facts "Species like thresher, bull and hammerhead sharks have lost up to 80-99% of their populations in the last two decades. Seabird populations have declined by 70% since the 1950's. Studies estimate that up to 40% of all marine life caught is thrown overboard as bycatch. Six out of seven species of sea turtles are either threatened or endangered due to fishing…

Cancel all commercial fishing

I would love to see all commercial fishing banned as well for something like 10 years. Unfortunately there are other countries that would not respect the ban and even if not countries, individuals would ignore it as it would create a black market.

I still think the idea should be discussed and maybe g20 nations come up with some agreements.

Hopefully things like lab grown fish improve and maybe we can move people away from the real thing.

I keep telling my kids they are lucky anytime we get the treat of having some fish as in their future it may not be something available to the common person.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#86

Post by myshpa »

amrocha wrote: post #75
myshpa wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Animals are benignly cruel to each other beyond your imagination https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/animals-eat-animals > They have a relatively peaceful, predation, free life after which you consume them https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/humane-meat

They're not fallacies, they're fundamental disagreements. 1. No, animals do not have rights. 2. No, animal lives are not morally equal to human lives. 3. No, eating animals is not cruel. If you disagree with these then that's fine, we can have a discussion about that, but you have to understand that not everyone agrees with you on these points otherwise you'll become that annoying vegan that pushes their beliefs on e…

Let's ;)

> No, animals do not have rights.

What about pets? Let's talk about dairy industry ... why don't we switch to dog milk? Nothing wrong with dog's milk. Full of goodness, full of vitamins, full of marrowbone jelly. Lasts longer than any other milk, dog's milk.

Why?

No bugger'll drink it. Plus of course the advantage of dog's milk is that when it goes off, it tastes exactly the same as when it's fresh.

> No, animal lives are not morally equal to human lives.

https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/animals-are-not-intelligen...

> No, eating animals is not cruel.

I won't talk about this until you watch this: https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch (warning: very graphic content).

Then come back and tell me that what we do to the animals is humane and morally ok. Killing (and skinning alive) living beings who don't want to die when you don't have to is not humane.

> otherwise you'll become that annoying vegan

I'm already there ... and I don't care. I'm using my voice for those who can't speak. And they don't matter less than you do.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#87

Post by BobbyJo »

myshpa wrote: post #65
jterrys wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But that animals are fellow beings, a lot like us in many ways. I didn't want pain, or someone to kill me, so I figured they didn't either. I respect your noble pursuit of not eating meat, and I have encountered arguments similar to yours enough times now that I feel compelled to respond in genuine kindness as someone who does like to eat meat (within "reason"). Animals are benignly cruel to each other beyond your i…

> Animals are benignly cruel to each other beyond your imagination https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/animals-eat-animals > They have a relatively peaceful, predation, free life after which you consume them https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/humane-meat

Your first point isn't consistent as a counter argument. Parent wasn't saying "animals do it so it's fine for us too". That's obviously wrong given the broad range of behaviors animals have that would be absolutely ridiculous if a human did them.

Parent was saying killing animals to eat them is not necessarily cruel. All animals die. In nature, this death is often painful and drawn out. Farming, with very little compromise, can be immensely more humane that what the average wild animal experiences. It is often not, but that can be fixed, both by the individual (buy from local less horrible farms) and by society (better regulation).

All that being said, I mostly avoid meat and dairy due to concerns over animal treatment.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#88

Post by oppositelock »

nerdponx wrote: post #61
narrator wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law of supply and demand expects the marginal cost of each additional fish to be more expensive. What if it's not. What if it costs the same amount of money to catch fish until you catch the very last fish. Suddenly the price of fish jumps from $.03/fish to infinity. Some sort of quota system has to be implemented and enforced to not come to such an abrupt halt on a market like that. Fish is one thing, at least t…

I remember one of my undergrad economics professors going on a rant about how we will never run out of oil or tungsten or whatever because the marginal cost will increase gradually until we find alternative materials. It sounded very intelligent and convincing to me at 18, and sounds downright idiotic to me now.

This is different than fish, as tungsten is recyclable and doesn't rot.

Read up on the Simon/Ehrlich wager. Nobody knows the future, but your professor was demonstrating a solid economic principle.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#89

Post by vkou »

BurningFrog wrote: post #64
myshpa wrote: post #15

It's not just the draughts. https://www.seaspiracy.org/facts "Species like thresher, bull and hammerhead sharks have lost up to 80-99% of their populations in the last two decades. Seabird populations have declined by 70% since the 1950's. Studies estimate that up to 40% of all marine life caught is thrown overboard as bycatch. Six out of seven species of sea turtles are either threatened or endangered due to fishing…

This is a classic Tragedy Of The Commons. Establish ownable fishing rights per ocean areas, and regular greed will solve this problem.

I will happily cover my land in radioactive sludge today [1], in exchange for a one-time payoff that exceeds what I paid for it (Or, worse yet, what I can expect to recoup from it in ).

Also, it's not like fish are going to respect lot borders. Overfishing in the lot next to mine will damage my lot's value. The only correct way for me to respond is by overfishing my lot.

[1] And leave my neighbours to deal with the long-term fallout.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#90

Post by myshpa »

nielsbot wrote: post #83
myshpa wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For example, Mitsubishi, a company which handles 35-40% of Japan’s imported Atlantic bluefin tuna, has been deep-freezing and stockpiling thousands of tons of bluefin each year, seeking to profit by selling bluefin at extremely steep prices in the future when the bluefin tuna is extinct or near extinction." https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/revealed-t... https://web.colby.edu/st297-global18/2019/01/2…

Won't this encourage fishermen to continue fishing bluefin at higher prices? What a dark future: "Bluefun tuna is extinct in the wild but you can still eat it from Mitsubishi" And then: "Today the last bluefin tuna in the history of the world was sold for $20M to a billionaire." Something like that...

We've already seen it in Futurama with the the anchovies (A fishful of dollars).
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