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Banning words won’t make the world more just

theatlantic.com

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Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#81

"The American Cancer Society advises that Latinx, along with the equally gender-neutral Latine, Latin@, and Latinu, “may or may not be fully embraced by older generations and may need additional explanation.” Cool cool, I look forward as a white guy to explaining to a group of Spanish people why they are wrong and are really LatinX and I'm doing it for their protection. Imagine being an immigrant and having to learn…

As a Hispanic American, I very regularly tell people I am Latino and that Latinx is incredibly offensive to my heritage. I'm in my 30s and the younger people I know also find it offensive.

I go by XatinXox, personally. And I expect people to call me that before I even inform them of what I am called. They should just know.

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#82
post #3

Is not "equity language" just another form of neocolonialism? How can "rich educated people" rename entire ethnic group (latinx) without their consent? Also there is nothing offensive about being "poor"... Equity language is just another tool to oppress people.

The term latinx didn't come out of "rich educated people" - certainly a lot of educated folk have been pushing it in the last decade (self-identifying grad students and recent college grads, for instance) - but there's a weird sort of prejudice going on in assuming everything can only come out of "rich educated [non-latino, based on your use of "their" there] people" Some discussion here: https://www.latimes.com/opin…

Where the term originated matters to some extent, but also where it comes from & is being used also matters. And the drive for 'Latinx' is coming from rich educated people.

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#83
post #29

"The American Cancer Society advises that Latinx, along with the equally gender-neutral Latine, Latin@, and Latinu, “may or may not be fully embraced by older generations and may need additional explanation.” Cool cool, I look forward as a white guy to explaining to a group of Spanish people why they are wrong and are really LatinX and I'm doing it for their protection. Imagine being an immigrant and having to learn…

A good friend of mine is a Spanish translator for a social services agency. She was telling me that the "latinx" thing is a real problem, because for people -- particularly older people -- who are not strong on their reading in the first place, they hit "LatinX" and genuinely have zero idea what that's supposed to mean. So then time, energy, and goodwill gets wasted by having to explain to people what they "should" b…

This word is also an issue for screen readers that some visually impaired people rely on. The use of "x" in the end of words to signal gender neutering is a very debated topic in Portuguese-speaking forums and nowadays, most people tend to agree that it's not optimal because it's not universally intelligible.

Latin person, person from a Latin-heritage background, and such, although more verbose, are preferred.

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#84
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am spanish. I fully agree this is all deeply stupid political-industry stuff that just generates artificial conflicts. Like many other things in politics.

[flagged]

Spanish-speaking non-binary people are hopefully not so stupid as to conflate a lack of appetite to rewrite the entirety of Spanish grammar with a refusal to acknowledge someone's existence.

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#85
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Including it would distract from the main point (though IIRC there was no point at which it wasn't a slur; replacing non-slurs with novel non-slurs is a different category). That said, I think it supports my point. How effective has tabooing that slur been at eliminating racism in the USA?

Why does a taboo have to "eliminate racism" to be considered useful or effective instead of just "reduce the amount of times people have to put up with hearing others call them that"?

Do you have an estimate for how much tabooing that word decreased the racial wealth gap or increased the number of black children with access to healthcare?

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#86

"The American Cancer Society advises that Latinx, along with the equally gender-neutral Latine, Latin@, and Latinu, “may or may not be fully embraced by older generations and may need additional explanation.” Cool cool, I look forward as a white guy to explaining to a group of Spanish people why they are wrong and are really LatinX and I'm doing it for their protection. Imagine being an immigrant and having to learn…

> Just don't be racist

I am so sorry if this pedantic, but I think it's an important distinction to make.

Both Hispanic and Latino are not races but rather an ethnic group. The race of people who belong to the Hispanic and Latino ethnic groups varies by country and even at the individual. One can have predominately African ancestry, predominately European ancestry, or predominately indigenous ancestry, while all belong to the same ethnic group of Hispanic or Latino.

I do not bring up this point to try and detract from the legitimate discrimination and oppression that many individuals and groups in the Hispanic and Latino community face.

People of Jewish heritage belong to what is known as an ethno-religious group. The idea that "Jews are a race" was either first proposed, or at least heavily perpetuated by the Nazis, and it is still considered offensive to refer to people of Jewish heritage as belonging to a different race.

Regardless, the idea of race is a social construct with absolutely zero biological or scientific basis behind it. There is only one "race", and it's the "Human Race."

In an ideal world, we would not even need to make these distinctions because we are all Homo Sapiens -- we have no subspecies. Maybe one day we can achieve this world if we stop the pathetic, needless, and disgusting hatred for our fellow man.

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#87
Writers always see the perceived misuse of words in apocalyptic terms, and The Atlantic is itself invested in a kind of elite moral panic over "woke culture," so I tend to look at articles like this with some skepticism.

One thing is that Packer himself fails to analyze the language under consideration with precision; the examples he lays out all fall, roughly, under a few different categories, which should be considered separately:

- Branding and inclusivity: Much of what he proffers as examples are not unfamiliar to anyone who's had to work with corporate style guides, where terms are favored or disfavored partially in relation to branding tone and voice, and partially to maximize clarity (idiosyncratic style being a frequent source of confusion). No one's harmed by a press release avoiding terms like "blind to" in favor of "refusing to see what's happening;" as a personal matter I prefer the concision of the former, but the latter is more plainspoken if also somewhat dull. Plodding and dull is often exactly what you're looking for in official communiques.

- Specificity and Precision: Again, while using "Americans" to refer to US residents is reasonable in casual contexts, or where American citizens are under discussion (e.g., political contexts), it's also reasonable to refer to "US residents" or the like. The biggest problem is that there isn't a concise term that covers "US citizens and legal permanent residents" that doesn't make you sound like a DHS circular or a legal opinion. (An additional complication is when you're working with Mexican and LATAM entities, where "American" is strongly disfavored unless you're literally talking about the Americas broadly. Same problem when people use "North American" to refer to US-Candada exclusively.) Slicing your terms finely to clearly delineate what you're discussing, and what you're not discussing, is again a perfectly reasonable goal in organizational communications, if anathema to a talented writer who is used to bending words to the context, rather than straightjacketing terms within specific contexts.

Both inclusivity and specificity are goals of most guides, particularly in journalism. (I'm not sure what style guide The Atlantic hews to, but rest assured their editors adhere to something.) Packer can argue that the Sierra Club's guide tends towards creating uninspired, workmanlike prose, but making a moral panic of that seems unwarranted.

- Instrumentalism: Instrumental terms are the ones that do have a real-world impact, because they're designed to either defuse or infuse a term with emotional valence. Instrumental terms contain arguments within themselves: using the term "slave" robs the person in question of their agency, which distances policy or analytic questions from those very people; "enslaved person" changes the context to slavery as an imposition on an agentive person; likewise, my preferred term (for Black slaves in US history), "enslaved American" goes evern further, being a deliberate and implicit argument against the legality of slavery even prior to the 13th Amendment. The term "justice-involved person" instead of "felon" is risible even to me, but the negative emotional valence of the latter term has a real effect on policy and the perception of policy, which is why terms like "ex-offender" are becoming more commonly used. Instrumentalist terms can be used for good or for evil; to make arguments, defuse emotional responses, or to invoke high dudgeon (Gingrich's famed GOPAC memo is a masterclass on using instrumentalist terms to whip up public emotion).

Whereas the worst you can say about branding and precision terms is that they're frequently clumsy and bland, instrumentalist language can affect the real world in often direct ways, and it's well worth interrogating the use of those terms to make their impact clear. Unfortunately, Packer fails to distinguish between the context of different kinds of language (it should be unsurprising that a policy paper uses clear if clumsy language, while a literary nonfiction book uses poetic and impactful imagery), and lumps all kinds of language style requirements under a general "equity language" heading, which is unhelpful and arguably misleading.

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Hispanic American, I very regularly tell people I am Latino and that Latinx is incredibly offensive to my heritage. I'm in my 30s and the younger people I know also find it offensive.

[flagged]

Our language doesn't need fixing, that's just the way it is. This whole latinx is literal cultural imperialism. It's not about not understanding the meaning of using these terms, it's the fact that it suggests that our entire language should be changed to be more "inclusive".

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#89
post #3

Is not "equity language" just another form of neocolonialism? How can "rich educated people" rename entire ethnic group (latinx) without their consent? Also there is nothing offensive about being "poor"... Equity language is just another tool to oppress people.

The term latinx didn't come out of "rich educated people" - certainly a lot of educated folk have been pushing it in the last decade (self-identifying grad students and recent college grads, for instance) - but there's a weird sort of prejudice going on in assuming everything can only come out of "rich educated [non-latino, based on your use of "their" there] people" Some discussion here: https://www.latimes.com/opin…

It coming from some random mentally demented blogs is even worse origin

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#90
post #9

The semantic turn of the Left is one of the worst signs of intellectual decay. There's approximately zero evidence that linguistic changes influence thought: the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is rejected by linguists except perhaps in some very narrow situations. The euphemism treadmill is a running joke, from negro, to black, to African American, to Black, to person of color. And none of them are better or worse than the o…

Today, it's no longer person of color.

It's "theirsxn of sholor". Please respect this and stop the violation and violence against theirsxns of sholor which is incurred when you use othering phrases.

(not thereson-- because it has the word "son" in it, which is offensive to non-sons. sholor because it's closer to shalom which means peace.)

/le jokes

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