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When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

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Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#81

Post by lrhot9 »

ceol wrote: post #72
lrhot9 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely you can see that those lists doesn't answer the question. "Nineteenth century British geologist" isn't an innovation, and a woman contributing to a field does not mean that "diversity fuels innovation".

I'm sorry. I don't have a list of innovations that happened because an underprivileged person joined a profession and used their world view. I could say the rise in Facebook/casual gaming proves there was a market going untapped, but I'm not sure if that was done by a woman/casual gamer, so I'm hesitant to use it. I was hoping it would be apparent that bringing in a different perspective would help a brand or profess…

I'd agree that bringing in a different perspective helps a brand or profession appeal to a wider audience. What's not apparent is that diversity fuels innovation. They're different statements.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#82

Post by squiggly101 »

ceol wrote: post #74
lrhot9 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way for it to not be up for debate would be if there existed a perfect discrimination-measuring machine. Look, if lack of diversity can only be explained by discrimination, you need to show that the field where women are most underrepresented - higher mathematics - is also the most rife with discrimination. I've never seen a female mathematician suggest it is. How do you explain this?

By that logic, nothing can ever exist without some way to measure it, yet we know of things like emotions and attractiveness. Would you then say that "hatred" or "love" cannot exist because there isn't a hatred/love-measuring machine? Just because you have not seen it does not mean it doesn't exist. I don't have any experience with higher mathematics, but let's take programming. Would the existence of a women-centric…

"Just because you have not seen it does not mean it doesn't exist."

And just because you say it is so does not make it so. To say something is "not up for debate" is really just saying you are not willing to hear or consider alternative views or opinions, and is a hallmark of the way feminists approach all kind of discourse and discussion with men. The only thing left to do really is start screeching "misogynist" at everyone who disagrees with you.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#83

Post by Helianthus »

ceol wrote: post #47
eternalban wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal experience in the field does not support your apparently strongly held assertion. Thus "IMO". > "you shouldn't try to grab focus with" Please do not question my motivation. I had a point to make.

It's not an assertion because this isn't something up for debate. Women face a lot of discrimination in the tech industry. You can say, "I don't see it," but saying it's your opinion that it doesn't exist is characterizing it as something that is opinionated. I'm sorry if it wasn't your intent to steal focus. What you did, whether intentional or not, is a common derailing tactic.

>It's not an assertion because this isn't something up for debate.

You aren't willing to debate it, which is a perfectly legitimate (if elitist) sentiment to express.

Your entire strategy in writing has been to combat while loudly saying you aren't going to fight.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#84

Post by patricklynch »

ceol wrote: post #77
patricklynch wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's not an assertion because this isn't something up for debate." If he hasn't seen any compelling evidence of [Issue X], then for him it remains unresolved. Rather than being offended that his mind isn't made up the right way, you might consider sharing whatever evidence makes you convinced that [Issue X] is a problem. --- assertion - a positive statement or declaration, often without support or reason (from dicti…

If you assumed I was offended by his post, you're far off. I'm only disappointed. The evidence is this blog post and the countless ones like it saying how tough it is for a woman to get into programming without being bombarded with negative attention just because of their gender. As I said in the other reply, there is no way to perfectly measure discrimination. If you don't trust the various testimonies by women in t…

Fine; replace 'offended' with 'disappointed.' My point--which you seem to have missed--is the same.

I'm not addressing the issue of gender discrimination.

I'm saying that your rhetorical approach, which seems to be "loudly proclaim that everyone should magically see things the same way I do," is ridiculous.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#85

Post by mangodrunk »

ceol wrote: post #74
lrhot9 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way for it to not be up for debate would be if there existed a perfect discrimination-measuring machine. Look, if lack of diversity can only be explained by discrimination, you need to show that the field where women are most underrepresented - higher mathematics - is also the most rife with discrimination. I've never seen a female mathematician suggest it is. How do you explain this?

By that logic, nothing can ever exist without some way to measure it, yet we know of things like emotions and attractiveness. Would you then say that "hatred" or "love" cannot exist because there isn't a hatred/love-measuring machine? Just because you have not seen it does not mean it doesn't exist. I don't have any experience with higher mathematics, but let's take programming. Would the existence of a women-centric…

Your examples are things that can be measured. Also, if you don't need evidence, then I can say anything.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#86

Post by ceol »

lrhot9 wrote: post #81
ceol wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry. I don't have a list of innovations that happened because an underprivileged person joined a profession and used their world view. I could say the rise in Facebook/casual gaming proves there was a market going untapped, but I'm not sure if that was done by a woman/casual gamer, so I'm hesitant to use it. I was hoping it would be apparent that bringing in a different perspective would help a brand or profess…

I'd agree that bringing in a different perspective helps a brand or profession appeal to a wider audience. What's not apparent is that diversity fuels innovation. They're different statements.

I believe innovation is the next logical step to widening your appeal. You make new and interesting advances when the work you're doing is for a different type of person or project.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#87

Post by ceol »

lrhot9 wrote: post #79
ceol wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic, nothing can ever exist without some way to measure it, yet we know of things like emotions and attractiveness. Would you then say that "hatred" or "love" cannot exist because there isn't a hatred/love-measuring machine? Just because you have not seen it does not mean it doesn't exist. I don't have any experience with higher mathematics, but let's take programming. Would the existence of a women-centric…

No, by that logic, it's just up for debate.

And which side would you take in that debate?

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#88

Post by ceol »

patricklynch wrote: post #84
ceol wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you assumed I was offended by his post, you're far off. I'm only disappointed. The evidence is this blog post and the countless ones like it saying how tough it is for a woman to get into programming without being bombarded with negative attention just because of their gender. As I said in the other reply, there is no way to perfectly measure discrimination. If you don't trust the various testimonies by women in t…

Fine; replace 'offended' with 'disappointed.' My point--which you seem to have missed--is the same. I'm not addressing the issue of gender discrimination. I'm saying that your rhetorical approach, which seems to be "loudly proclaim that everyone should magically see things the same way I do," is ridiculous.

What part is magic? I'm saying to take the testimony of women who are either in the field or have attempted to join as evidence. Were you just nit-picking at my use of "it's not up for debate"?

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#89

Post by jacoblyles »

SolarNet wrote: post #75
jacoblyles wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your world model doesn't fit the fact that women have been gaining in every elite profession I can think of over the last 50 years. Take the example of the gender breakdown of law and medicine students: http://chronicle.com/blogs/brainstorm/equality-for-women-bet... Also, I would like to journey to this mythical world of yours where programming is considered an "elite" job.

On average I will make more money than any other 4 year degree at my school (According to our schools alum association). I am part of a profession that has created a significant amount of recent world wide change, like Facebook, Twitter, Google, and almost every innovation on or related to the web since it's beginning. There is a different between programmers (Like the ones Microsoft hires), and people who can progra…

Programmers have much lower social status than the Professions. Programming has poor job security, entails long hours if you want to make decent money, and often requires you to work with socially inept peers.

The higher status that programming gets, the more women I expect to enter the field. Not less.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#90

Post by kd1221 »

Cushman wrote: post #29
mekoka wrote: post #18

Avery Swartz, a mentor at another table, works as a freelance website designer. “A lot of my clients are women. They don’t necessarily want to work with a man because they are afraid of the intimidation factor, the tech speak, the ‘jargon’. I want women to feel empowered, to know that they can take an active role.” This is not a gender problem, it's pedagogical. My granddad would be intimidated to learn to code for t…

You're missing the point-- it is about gender. Women don't want to work with, and especially learn from, men because they are afraid that the man will not know how to speak to them as an equal. They're afraid he'll hide his discomfort behind jargon, and that he will be unable to be nice without being patronizing. Heaven forfend that this man, like many highly technical people, is socially awkward in general! In that…

It's not about gender. From your point of view it's about character weakness. A woman has bad experiences with men, so she should be trained to seek haven among women? If she wants to get a mortgage, should she do so only through a female mortgage broker? If she wants to buy a car, does it have to be sold to her by a woman? Or more generally does she need to attend a women-only class that teaches her to negotiate with salesmen? Sounds like a form of community codependency to me.

A better solution might be to teach women (and men) to accept and understand different styles of communication. And that class shouldn't be gender-specific.

In regard to programming, another commenter had a great solution. Get some books, make a github account, learn to code. You have complete anonymity on github. It's a place where all aspects of your individuality can drop out of consideration except the most important in the context: your ability to understand and write code.

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