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China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

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Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#81

Post by yogthos »

thevagrant wrote: post #43
s1artibartfast wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is indeed the most interesting part. >The security of a country should not be pursued at the expense of others. The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. The most clear interpretation of this section is a condemnation of NATO expansion into Ukraine. NATO is the "military bloc" described here. A military bloc is a military alliance of states. Russia invading Ukr…

That doesnt make sense. Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Also NATO is a defensive alliance. It seems some countries don't want their neighbors to defend themselves?

It's utterly dishonest to argue that NATO is a defensive alliance in the face of the fact that NATO has been regularly invading countries for many decades. Yugoslavia, Libya, Afghanistan, and Syria are just a few examples.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#82

Post by mopsi »

yogthos wrote: post #78
mopsi wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nowhere does it say that "both parties in US represent the exact same interests".

The study literally concludes that regardless of what party is in power, it's the interests of the oligarchs that take precedence. Whenever there is a difference of the opinion between the masses and the oligarchs then the oligarchs typically win. That's whose interests the parties represent. And, if you think that's what a democracy is then what else is there to tell you.

You claimed that both parties represent the exact same interests, and I don't agree with that at all and nor does the article support it.

If we use campaign contributions as a proxy for interests, then internet companies like Google and Facebook and their employees support Democrats much more than they support Republicans, and it's vice versa in the aerospace and defence industry.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#83

Post by jszymborski »

yogthos wrote: post #80
jszymborski wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the ad hominum is going to bully me into accepting something akin to saying the sky is green and polka dotted then I suggest you change tact.

Please learn what ad hominem means if you're going to use it. Nowhere am I suggesting that your argument is wrong because of your character flaws. I've explained why it's wrong on its own merits.

I'm not going to argue with you beyond this last comment because you're clearly doing so in bad faith, but you were trying to invalidate my comment because I'm "some white dude who cant find China on a map".

An ad hominem is "a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than addressing the substance of the argument itself."

Your incorrect and baseless assertion that I can't find China on a map attacks me as a person, and not what I said. I'm also not American fyi.

Now kindly never interact with me again.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#84

Post by yogthos »

jszymborski wrote: post #83
yogthos wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please learn what ad hominem means if you're going to use it. Nowhere am I suggesting that your argument is wrong because of your character flaws. I've explained why it's wrong on its own merits.

I'm not going to argue with you beyond this last comment because you're clearly doing so in bad faith, but you were trying to invalidate my comment because I'm "some white dude who cant find China on a map". An ad hominem is "a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than addressing the substance of the argument itself." Your…

I was pointing out the absurdity of your claim that people living in a country would have worse understanding of how their own country works than an outsider. I'm sorry your porcelain ego was bruised in the process.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#85

Post by yogthos »

mopsi wrote: post #82
yogthos wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The study literally concludes that regardless of what party is in power, it's the interests of the oligarchs that take precedence. Whenever there is a difference of the opinion between the masses and the oligarchs then the oligarchs typically win. That's whose interests the parties represent. And, if you think that's what a democracy is then what else is there to tell you.

You claimed that both parties represent the exact same interests, and I don't agree with that at all and nor does the article support it. If we use campaign contributions as a proxy for interests, then internet companies like Google and Facebook and their employees support Democrats much more than they support Republicans, and it's vice versa in the aerospace and defence industry.

Once again, both parties represent the interests of the ruling class in American society which is the capital owning class. This is precisely what the study shows. This has absolutely nothing to do with democrats or republicans. The division in American society is between people whose primary source of income is their capital and those whose primary source of income is their labour.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#86

Post by mopsi »

yogthos wrote: post #85
mopsi wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You claimed that both parties represent the exact same interests, and I don't agree with that at all and nor does the article support it. If we use campaign contributions as a proxy for interests, then internet companies like Google and Facebook and their employees support Democrats much more than they support Republicans, and it's vice versa in the aerospace and defence industry.

Once again, both parties represent the interests of the ruling class in American society which is the capital owning class. This is precisely what the study shows. This has absolutely nothing to do with democrats or republicans. The division in American society is between people whose primary source of income is their capital and those whose primary source of income is their labour.

There's no monolithic "ruling class" that both major parties serve equally, and nor did the article claim anything like that. Instead, there is a huge patchwork of constantly shifting interest groups who are looking for suitable candidates to support, and candidates who are tweaking their platforms to appeal to as many groups as possible. Why would, for example, Fortune 500 companies spend a dime on elections if both parties served them the same.

The idea of a singular ruling class controlling the whole country is a lazy conspiracy theory that ignores the complexity of politics and governance.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#87

Post by dragonwriter »

mopsi wrote: post #86
yogthos wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again, both parties represent the interests of the ruling class in American society which is the capital owning class. This is precisely what the study shows. This has absolutely nothing to do with democrats or republicans. The division in American society is between people whose primary source of income is their capital and those whose primary source of income is their labour.

There's no monolithic "ruling class" that both major parties serve equally, and nor did the article claim anything like that. Instead, there is a huge patchwork of constantly shifting interest groups who are looking for suitable candidates to support, and candidates who are tweaking their platforms to appeal to as many groups as possible. Why would, for example, Fortune 500 companies spend a dime on elections if both…

> There’s no monolithic “ruling class” that both major parties serve equally

There is a ruling class (capital), but it is not – nor is it asserted to be – monolithic. There are conflicts as well as common interests within it; the common interests are more consistently served by government bipartisanly because the dominant factions of each party answer to (different, but overlapping, subsets of) the capitalist class. The points on which the ruling class are also the points of genuine (rather than ginned up to build support on other issues) divisions between the parties.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#88

Post by jszymborski »

yogthos wrote: post #84
jszymborski wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to argue with you beyond this last comment because you're clearly doing so in bad faith, but you were trying to invalidate my comment because I'm "some white dude who cant find China on a map". An ad hominem is "a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than addressing the substance of the argument itself." Your…

I was pointing out the absurdity of your claim that people living in a country would have worse understanding of how their own country works than an outsider. I'm sorry your porcelain ego was bruised in the process.

Excuse me Dmitri but we live in the same country.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#89

Post by 2devnull »

clouddrover wrote: post #75
2devnull wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukrainians are dying in a war that any educated person knows they are likely to lose. The more money we send them, the more Ukrainians will die. The best solution is a peaceful solution. If you are so righteous in your concern for the plight of Ukrainians, go there and help them! Otherwise you are like the guy who coerces his buddy into a fistfight while hiding safely in the shadows, like a miserable coward.

Ukrainians won't do the capitulation, submission, or subjugation you want from them. They do not share your nihilism. You need to recalibrate your sloppy thinking.

The war would be over if it weren’t for American funding. You think Ukraine will win? Ukraine is nothing except what American war hawks pay it to be, a surrogate army fighting a war funded by American dollars, using American weapons, fighting against America’s enemy. If you think Putin invaded because he wanted to get his hands on Ukrainian resources you’re a fool. This is America and NATO’s war, being fought for our interests, with our dollars, our tanks and missiles, using Ukrainian lives and territory because we fear Putin.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#90

Post by yogthos »

jszymborski wrote: post #88
yogthos wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was pointing out the absurdity of your claim that people living in a country would have worse understanding of how their own country works than an outsider. I'm sorry your porcelain ego was bruised in the process.

Excuse me Dmitri but we live in the same country.

Yet, only one of us pretends to know what political system China has better than people living there.
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