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Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

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Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#81

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

elil17 wrote: post #41
adoxyz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends on the circumstances. Like if they were told they could go full remote, and the employee moved out of state and settled down somewhere where there is no office, now to be told j/k get back in here, seems like a case could be made.

There is no case to be made in the US unless the constructive dismissal was discriminatory in nature. It is legal to get people to quit by making working conditions worse, as long as you don't break any employment laws by doing so. Say that I want you some of my employees to quit. I say you are only allowed to have meetings while doing handstands, but I provide reasonable accommodation for disabled people who can't d…

Constructive dismissal is legal. The point is that if an employee can show that you changed the rules to make them quit, they get unemployment benefits.

Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#82

Post by wonderwonder »

Zigurd wrote: post #40
photon12 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welllll, when you are a cloud for the world's governments and systemically important financial institutions, you have operating functions that keep you being able to retain those customers. AWS has had issues in the past with employee retention in those types of departments. If there is a theory of RTTO as a form of soft layoffs, it still seems like we have a lot to learn about how that impacts the compliance and sec…

Re "AWS has had issues in the past with employee retention in those types of departments." Amazon as a whole is the only first tier tech company where people I know wanted to get jobs, and later decided to leave because the work environment was bad.

I've always thought of Amazon as a step into Faang. You get a job there, it pays really well. It sucks. You maybe survive 2 years and leave or don't and get a nice severance. Now you have faang on your resume and can go somewhere else. Never thought of it as a long term type place as you are very much not a person but a line item or even worse a hire to fire.

Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#83

Post by benjismith »

I must be one of the very very few software engineers that would prefer to RTO. (I'm not at Amazon, btw).

I do enjoy the flexibility of being able to occasionally work from home. But I miss the bustling office culture, going out to lunch with coworkers, forming friendships with people from the office who don't necessarily work in the same department/team.

Most days, I go into town and work from a WeWork (because it's nice to have a daily change of scenery), but 95% of the time, I'm the only person there (in an office with nine desks). Before the pandemic there were 80~100 people in our office.

Sigh...

Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#84

Post by rtp4me »

x86x87 wrote: post #67
rtp4me wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't ask yourself or your neighbor. Ask your company why they want you to RTO. Who needs the RTO? Apparently, the company does. This is why they are asking people to return...

hah. i did ask. I also did ask about the metrics that are used to measure productivity. Do you want to hear what the answer was? crickets!

So, I guess at this point you have at least two options:

* Go back to the office as expected

* Look for another job

Which one will you pursue?

Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#85

Post by VBprogrammer »

plorkyeran wrote: post #68
xivzgrev wrote: post #35

"For instance, some employees who are part of global teams will come into the office only to continue taking virtual meetings, and they may not even have a coworker in their office, the petition states." My company is RTO, but with teams across offices, so I know this pain all too well. Our leadership has not addressed this disconnect either, so I wouldn't hold your breath.

I guess the obvious question is that if no one on your team is in the same office as you, who will even notice if you don't show up to the office? As long as your direct manager is on board, it seems easy to just disregard the RTO requirement and keep working from home.

Clearly you don't have the kind of dystopian office which records to the second when you scan your office pass for the first and last times in a day.

Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#86

Post by thfuran »

jonas21 wrote: post #51
shmatt wrote: post #28

The thing is, this becomes theater of working. Imagine commuting to the office 60-90 minutes each direction just to sit in a stuffy room and zoom Want to talk collaboration and productivity? Let's see if a company bans zoom for office days (but none will) And im not even going to start on the complete waste of time of people in an open space talking non stop about their fantasy football draft. I haven't heard those w…

> just to sit in a stuffy room and zoom Presumably, that's what the return to office plan is trying to fix. Right now, if you go into the office, you're spending a lot of time in zoom calls because half the people in every meeting aren't there. If everyone's in the office, you can just meet in person.

But that makes the room twice as stuffy.

Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#87

Post by chartpath »

adoxyz wrote: post #25
User23 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for remote work in tech, but I also think it might be difficult to convince a court that "please come to work" is creating a hostile work environment.

I guess it depends on the circumstances. Like if they were told they could go full remote, and the employee moved out of state and settled down somewhere where there is no office, now to be told j/k get back in here, seems like a case could be made.

Especially if they were hired with remote in their original agreement. Changing the location of work would necessitate some additional consideration and a new agreement.

Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#88

Post by whateveracct »

twblalock wrote: post #79
weard_beard wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now replace WFH with 401K and see if it makes sense. Its a benefit. To be competitive you offer it. If you don't, bye bye talent.

FAANG total comp is a lot higher than what most other companies will pay. I think the parent poster is right -- the smaller companies will pay lower salaries and offer remote work, and the larger companies will pay higher salaries and require at least 3 days per week in the office.

FAANG total comp is higher, but I think I've made way more money/hour off working remotely than I ever would have if I stayed at FAANG [1]. So while I have less total money, I have made the money I made way more efficiently. Which in some ways, makes me richer :)

I sometimes have to remind myself that this level of leisure is basically what "traditional retirement" looks like (but with like a quarter-mil/year income + benefits) and that gives me get a sense of perspective when I'm feeling stressed.

[1] A key thing that makes this true is that commute + forced office time is like 3-4x the active working time I average working from home. So it's not hard to beat the Amazon 400k total comp quote when weighted against hours - I honestly beat that at my first remote gig years ago as a relatively junior dev! And I have the same engineering output more or less.

Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#89

Post by weard_beard »

twblalock wrote: post #79
weard_beard wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now replace WFH with 401K and see if it makes sense. Its a benefit. To be competitive you offer it. If you don't, bye bye talent.

FAANG total comp is a lot higher than what most other companies will pay. I think the parent poster is right -- the smaller companies will pay lower salaries and offer remote work, and the larger companies will pay higher salaries and require at least 3 days per week in the office.

Contractor total comp is a lot higher than salary. I don't see anyone talking about the glamour and prestige, just the uncertainty and overhead. Companies that don't offer it 100% will be seen as "gig" equivalent. Cheap, manipulative, gross sweat shops.

Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#90

Post by modoc »

jonas21 wrote: post #51
shmatt wrote: post #28

The thing is, this becomes theater of working. Imagine commuting to the office 60-90 minutes each direction just to sit in a stuffy room and zoom Want to talk collaboration and productivity? Let's see if a company bans zoom for office days (but none will) And im not even going to start on the complete waste of time of people in an open space talking non stop about their fantasy football draft. I haven't heard those w…

> just to sit in a stuffy room and zoom Presumably, that's what the return to office plan is trying to fix. Right now, if you go into the office, you're spending a lot of time in zoom calls because half the people in every meeting aren't there. If everyone's in the office, you can just meet in person.

None of my team is in the same state as me. In fact I haven't interacted with anyone based in my state so far.
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