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A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

theguardian.com

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Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#81

Post by chimprich »

sph wrote: post #2

First it was Russia meddling with elections (Trump, Brexit), now it's a team led by an ex Israeli special forces guy — which reminds me a bit of the NSO Group story. You know what is terrifying? That upon learning about Russia having a major hand in Western election, nothing concrete was done. In Britain we learned the whole Brexit movement was paid for, and manipulated by Russian money (and it was arguably a crucial…

> You know what is terrifying? That upon learning about Russia having a major hand in Western election, nothing concrete was done.

I don't think that's entirely fair. There's been no political route open to prosecuting anyone for the above, but there's been plenty of concrete actions. Western opposition to Russia has increased substantially in recent years.

Would we have been as vigorous in our support for Ukraine and eager to supply weapons and all the other things if Russia hadn't been pulling off all these shenanigans? It probably had an effect and Russia is certainly facing consequences.

Western intelligence has also been a lot more proactive in combatting Russian misinformation.

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#82

Post by barbazoo »

WalterBright wrote: post #57
barbazoo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was one option on the ballot, I think that was more the problem. Having choice and not having someone with a gun escort you to the ballot box are bigger requirements. If there were no repercussions, voting could totally be open, don't you think?

Do you really want the thug in power to know you didn't vote for him?

That's exactly my point, it's a problem because there is a "thug in power". That's the problem, not open voting.

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#83

Post by barbazoo »

suddenclarity wrote: post #75
barbazoo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was one option on the ballot, I think that was more the problem. Having choice and not having someone with a gun escort you to the ballot box are bigger requirements. If there were no repercussions, voting could totally be open, don't you think?

There will always be repercussions. Sweden have been doing public voting for decades by forcing you to pick the ballot out in the open, before going into a booth and putting the public ballot into an envelope. Your family, friends and the whole neighborhood will know whomever voted for the wrong party and will treat you thereafter. EU and election authorities have demanded change to make it private but the previously…

> There will always be repercussions.

> Your family, friends and the whole neighborhood will know whomever voted for the wrong party and will treat you thereafter.

"Repercussions" from family or neighbours, sure, but not from whoever has the monopoly on violence. I haven't heard of the Swedish government going after people that "voted wrong".

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#84

Post by chimprich »

user3939382 wrote: post #80
apstls wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One minute of googling found these: - https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download - https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu... - https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf - https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu... - https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/download Spending some time flipping through these (ignore the last two if you please, one heavily…

It's one universe -- this activity within the government you're citing culminated in the Mueller investigation's final report, which read "insufficient evidence of a criminal conspiracy". Let me translate that for you: the whole thing was a hoax from day 1, discussed non-stop by our de-facto state media corporate press, and pushed non-stop for years on the American public by the DNC which is the source of those docum…

Quote from Mueller's report: "The Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion".

...but you seem to have ignored that.

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#85

Post by apstls »

user3939382 wrote: post #80
apstls wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One minute of googling found these: - https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download - https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu... - https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf - https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu... - https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/download Spending some time flipping through these (ignore the last two if you please, one heavily…

It's one universe -- this activity within the government you're citing culminated in the Mueller investigation's final report, which read "insufficient evidence of a criminal conspiracy". Let me translate that for you: the whole thing was a hoax from day 1, discussed non-stop by our de-facto state media corporate press, and pushed non-stop for years on the American public by the DNC which is the source of those docum…

This is effectively a strawman argument. My comment, and the one I was responding to, are discussing Russian meddling (as in election interference efforts) while you are discussing Trump-Russia collusion, a (very, very) small subset of the actual topic we were discussing.

I do not understand your hand-wavey dismissal of the documents I linked to, as I do not understand how you could have checked their contents and came away believing they all discussed Trump-Russia collusion. For example, the indictment I linked to is very clear, direct proof of election interference activities performed by an offensive cyber unit within the Russian military and never makes any implications of involvement by Trump.

Regarding Trump-Russia collusion - since you brought the topic up - the things you are asserting still seem potentially dubious.

A decision to not indict and prosecute is not based on whether it is more likely that the crime was committed than not, but whether or not it can be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, especially in a scenario like this. It is not 50% sure, not 80%, closer to 99% sure. If you read the Mueller report is is most definitely not a conclusive exoneration of Trump. You cannot honestly argue that collusion did not occur because Mueller did not indict.

Opposition research is research funded by opposition. That does not imply that the output of the research must therefore be asserting the opposite of the reality of its subject matter. I don’t understand this point.

Somebody who was a source for Steele, who is ex-Western intelligence, also being a source for other components of Western intelligence like the FBI seems wildly unsuspicious. Of course, the Post tries to spin it anyway, which is unsurprising for media outlets in general today, but particularly unsurprising for this particular outlet.

Basically, I am not saying that collusion did or did not occur, because I do not know. And if we do truly live in the same universe, you do not know either, you just think you do.

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#86

Post by WalterBright »

barbazoo wrote: post #82
WalterBright wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really want the thug in power to know you didn't vote for him?

That's exactly my point, it's a problem because there is a "thug in power". That's the problem, not open voting.

Even the nicest people become thugs when in power. Power corrupts.

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#87

Post by dette »

WalterBright wrote: post #86
barbazoo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly my point, it's a problem because there is a "thug in power". That's the problem, not open voting.

Even the nicest people become thugs when in power. Power corrupts.

Most, perhaps yes! But not always. You seem to often have so binary thoughts xD

Do you work with programming or something?

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#88

Post by barbazoo »

WalterBright wrote: post #86
barbazoo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly my point, it's a problem because there is a "thug in power". That's the problem, not open voting.

Even the nicest people become thugs when in power. Power corrupts.

I don't know, in my experience most governments aren't run by "thugs" but YMMV.

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#89

Post by sidlls »

eastbound wrote: post #67
sidlls wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want direct democracy: the problem of voting shenanigans and corruption just expands from a known set of elected officials who vote on laws to...everyone. Aside from that, people in aggregate just aren't that bright: I don't want them making decisions much more substantial than what they'll have for dinner, much less voting on issues that affect me.

> people in aggregate just aren't that bright The premise of Humanism is that people should decide for their own future. It also means we won’t hide the bible in Latin and we’ll translate it in current languages; In other words we’ll educate people. If you don’t trust people, that means school is failing, but remember that we’ve invented democracy in the 1700 across the world, when schools weren’t briliant either. An…

We didn’t invent democracy in the US: it has been around since at least Ancient Greece, and before then, too. I am opposed to direct democracy and am absolutely fine with representative/republican democracy.

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#90

Post by WalterBright »

barbazoo wrote: post #88
WalterBright wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the nicest people become thugs when in power. Power corrupts.

I don't know, in my experience most governments aren't run by "thugs" but YMMV.

The only reason for open ballots is to hold individuals "accountable" for their votes.
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