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The search for extraterrestrial life as we don’t know it

scientificamerican.com

81–90 of 102 posts

Re: The search for extraterrestrial life as we don’t know it

#81

Question for people up to date with modern biochemistry: if there were extraterrestrial microbes on Earth right now, with totally unique chemical origins unrelated to proteins, nucleic acids, saccharides, etc., how likely would we be to notice them? And which analytic method would find them first? Is there a systemic search for this kind of crazy stuff, and where are the review papers for them? I don't know the keywo…

We're not really looking for microbes.

Sure, they can still be very interesting from the bio/chemistry point of view. But it's the advanced civilizations that we're really after.

Re: The search for extraterrestrial life as we don’t know it

#82
post #64
post #11

I've always found the framework we use to search for extraterrestrial life to be too based on our own experience. It could take countless forms, most of which we could never recognize or understand, and might be present everywhere without us knowing. I'm glad that more of the science community is pushing to broaden our horizons.

The thing is, people don't realize this argument fully. If you are to accept that life could take countless forms, most which we could never recognize or begin to understand, then it's quite possible rocks are lifeforms, as we don't recognize them as life now nor understand how they could be living. Since most people seemingly don't like the argument that rocks are living, then this shows that this argument (along wi…

Have you ever seen rocks do anything interesting? I don't mean outside forces acting on rocks, but rocks themselves?

Re: The search for extraterrestrial life as we don’t know it

#83
post #11

I've always found the framework we use to search for extraterrestrial life to be too based on our own experience. It could take countless forms, most of which we could never recognize or understand, and might be present everywhere without us knowing. I'm glad that more of the science community is pushing to broaden our horizons.

This isn't true, because information complexity and structure are measurable physical quantities. (In the same way we recognize language vs random noise even if we can't understand it.)

There is no agreed upon definition for life, and certainly no information complexity requirements.

Re: The search for extraterrestrial life as we don’t know it

#84
post #11

I've always found the framework we use to search for extraterrestrial life to be too based on our own experience. It could take countless forms, most of which we could never recognize or understand, and might be present everywhere without us knowing. I'm glad that more of the science community is pushing to broaden our horizons.

I used to think that too. Life could be anything; crystals, pure energy, eddies in the superfluid cores of neutron stars, swimming in seas of metallic hydrogen in Jupiter's core, living clouds floating in Venus' upper atmosphere.

The trouble is that when you start asking yourself about what the fundamental nature of life is, all the fun stuff starts to fall out.

For life to be life, it needs to do work. You need a metabolism. You need to "do stuff". The only way to do work ("work" in the physics sense) is to leverage an energy gradient; you need to have hot/cold, high/low pressure, bright/dark, high/low salt concentrations, high/low energy chemicals, positive/negative charge, etc. And you need to extract work from the differences between them. Therefore, you need to have a physical barrier between your high/low energy states; if you didn't, the system would reach equilibrium without you. So you need a physical barrier, it has to be a solid or liquid: you've eliminated your beings of pure energy, superfluid eddies, living clouds.

It's all well and good to use whatever weird energy gradient you want, but most energy gradients are simply too inconvenient; if you want to get energy, chemistry is ultimately going to be the only one that works. It's fine for plants to break water molecules with relatively high energy photons, but you can't build complicated structures with light. You need chemistry. And for chemistry you need to be in the liquid phase. So you've eliminated your crystal based life.

So everything is chemicals with complex structures in a liquid. It doesn't have to be proteins constructed with amino acids, it doesn't have to be ribosomes constructed from RNA, but you need some sort of 'interesting' chemical. How do you build interesting chemicals? Well you have to use carbon. You have to use carbon, no other element fits the bill. The metals are right out; they only form metallic bonds and ionic bonds which are non-structural. The noble gases are out because they don't do chemistry. The halogens are out because they can form just the one covalent bond. The chalcogens (oxygen, sulfur, etc) are also out for the same reason; with only two covalent bonding points you can form chains and rings, but not a branching structure. Nitrogen is too happy to form a triple bond with itself, producing a gas, so basically all molecules with lots of nitrogen atoms are explosive. Phosphorus is a decent candidate, but its chemistry is very finicky. Carbon is great, because it forms 4 covalent bonds that are not too strong and not too weak. Silicon is ... ok? But it cannot form double bonds, it tends to form weak bonds, and is unstable in most chemistries.

So life has to be carbon based. This puts an upper limit on temperatures, because interesting carbon chemistry breaks down at high temperatures. Venus is out, the depths of Jupiter are out.

So we're looking at other solvents besides water. Methane is a great candidate, and as a result lots of people are clamoring to get a Titan mission going. Ammonia is something people talk about, but it's unlikely to be able to form ponds or oceans on a world; it's probably going to break down into methane and molecular nitrogen, because again, carbon rules. But if we detected a large amount of ammonia in the spectra of a planet that could maintain temperatures consistent with liquid ammonia, you could bet that everyone is going to clamoring to study it in detail.

So what are we looking at? Carbon based life on planets with liquid oceans. Which is basically the same as us. We haven't gotten here because we're biased towards what we're like, we've gotten here by starting from first principals, considered everything, and eliminated the things which are impossible.

Re: The search for extraterrestrial life as we don’t know it

#85
post #69
post #36

I'm not sure what the point of this is. In the last 60+ years we've obviously learned a lot and widened our definition of where life on Earth can live (eg subsea volcanic vents, in rocks in Antarctica). We obviously don't know the limits of biochemistry and thus in what environments life can evolve and where it can continue to live where it exists. We're certainly not going to be detecting a world full of microbes fr…

> We're certainly not going to be detecting a world full of microbes from light years away. JWST would be able to detect an oxygen rich atmosphere like ours, which is a sure sign of life. Oxygen rich atmospheres are not a stable equilibrium; without all the plants and plankton on Earth, the oxygen in the atmosphere would all recombine, and Earth would be left with an atmosphere with no oxygen but additional CO2. Atmo…

It's too late to edit my post, but the point of the CO2/methane thing is that if we found a planet that had lots of both CO2 and methane in its atmosphere, that is an atmosphere that exists in a non-stable equilibrium, which implies life.

Re: The search for extraterrestrial life as we don’t know it

#86

Question for people up to date with modern biochemistry: if there were extraterrestrial microbes on Earth right now, with totally unique chemical origins unrelated to proteins, nucleic acids, saccharides, etc., how likely would we be to notice them? And which analytic method would find them first? Is there a systemic search for this kind of crazy stuff, and where are the review papers for them? I don't know the keywo…

Not at all familiar with biochemistry but octopuses are aliens on earth with very different evolutionary track having developed ‘brains’ before our ancestors did independently! It’s crazy we don’t study things like cephalopods like we do SETI etc…

When ever people talk about terraforming planets I just think they sound insane. Like we don't know how a majority of our own planet even works yet you think we can recreate it?

If someone told me that we know more about space then our own oceans I wouldn't be surprised.

Re: The search for extraterrestrial life as we don’t know it

#87
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's already a whole world of terrestrial microbes that we expect or even know for certain to exist but can't culture, let alone stain, which means we can't really study them. I'm going to bookmark this for the case someone asks: what piece of information that seems basic did you ignore until very recently? A question that often arises is: if current life evolved from chemistry that's simpler than DNA, why has tha…

> A question that often arises is: if current life evolved from chemistry that's simpler than DNA, why has that one disappeared? Maybe it hasn't. If that's the case, it was almost certainly because of the atmospheric oxygen. Almost all of the chemical reactions that used to happen before it do not happen anymore on the wild.

Having oxygen in the atmosphere and liquid water truly steers the kinds of chemistry we study.

Re: The search for extraterrestrial life as we don’t know it

#88
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very, very unlikely like astronomically so. Most microorganisms are so small they're practically transparent so we have to exploit biochemistry to "stain" them - hence why you'll often hear of bacteria classified as either Gram positive or negative, because of the Gram stain. If the biochemistry is unique or even slightly different i.e. right handed chirality, we'd basically have zero of our usual tools at our dispos…

There's already a whole world of terrestrial microbes that we expect or even know for certain to exist but can't culture, let alone stain, which means we can't really study them. I'm going to bookmark this for the case someone asks: what piece of information that seems basic did you ignore until very recently? A question that often arises is: if current life evolved from chemistry that's simpler than DNA, why has tha…

> A question that often arises is: if current life evolved from chemistry that's simpler than DNA, why has that one disappeared? Maybe it hasn't.

Probably for the same reason we don't see relay or valve based digital computers anymore. They were outcompeted to extinction by their more sophisticated descendants.

Re: The search for extraterrestrial life as we don’t know it

#89
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this but would the intelligent beings on other planets be the same size as humans? Could there be giant creatures that are just as intelligent as us?

There are some square/cube laws that put a rough cap on how big an efficient animal can be with Earth biology. But if you change some parameters (lower gravity, energy-rich environment, stronger building materials than bone) you could get hundreds of times bigger than humans. Even on Earth, intelligent dinosaurs would have been completely possible.

And I forgot to even mention whales.

Re: The search for extraterrestrial life as we don’t know it

#90
post #79

I think we should stop looking and start sending extremophiles to everywhere life could possibly take hold.

We inadvertently did something similar when we discovered the New World. Didn't work out so well for the natives. That time was an honest mistake, but maybe we should stop trying to play God for a while. At least until we are advanced enough to create our own universe to experiment with.

>That time was an honest mistake,

yeah, but once people worked out how it was killing the natives they went a more systematic route.

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