I want to lose every debate • Hacker News Board

Re: I want to lose every debate

#81

Post by zirgs » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 9:41 AM UTC

mandmandam wrote: post #43

_cenw wrote: post #23

Understanding perspectives is a useful skill. But it's not where having an educated opinion ends. I understand the desire of US fossil fuel companies to do fracking. They're not stupid or comically evil. But they can be greedy, misguided, selfish and too focused on short term gains (if you want to be extra accustory, "within their lifetime"). If you then move over to how much astroturfing is involved in pushing throu…

Fracking is textbook comic evil. Say there's a comic book where fossil fuel co's worked to permanently ruin the groundwater and increase earthquakes in a region - bribing lawmakers and fucking over the people who lived there, gagging scientists, etc - all just for a resource that is literally burning the planet... So they can upgrade their megayacht/private jet... I'd find it hard to believe that others could allow i…

Fracking happens, because we need energy not because fossil fuel CEOs are moustache twirling comic book villains.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#82

Post by BasedGroyper99 » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 9:42 AM UTC

paganel wrote: post #6

> The sex worker explains why she loves her job. I'm not going to comment on the other stuff, but we should stop with the sociopathic neo-liberal glorification of "sex work", which in the majority of cases is just human trafficking. I come from a town in Eastern Europe where one of the local mob guys has been caught with trafficking hundreds of (I guess mostly local) girls in Spain. I'm pretty sure many of those girl…

You're opening a can of worms, but that's basically what every debate does. The idea of "sex work" has other, larger implications. For example, in my country, if you are unemployed, the government gives you some money, but less money if you don't try to find work. If "sex work" is a legitimate form of work, can the government suggest you seek such a job, if you can't find work otherwise? Will your friends and your family pressure you? It may seem far-fetched at first, but if I think back to all the other things that were liberating alternatives and now have become mandatory. Cars gave us the freedom to quickly get from A to B, but now a commute of 1 hour is acceptable. Phones gave us the freedom to reach everyone almost instantly, but now you have to be available 24/7 for everyone else. You can get the latest news at any time, but you also have to stay up-to-date. It is no coincidence that most women put on make-up every single day.

What I'm trying to say is that everything that is "liberating" only shackles you to a new framework eventually.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#83

Post by taneq » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 9:43 AM UTC

nibbleshifter wrote: post #49

tsuujin wrote: post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

There is nothing more tedious in adult life than some debate club weenie trying to turn every random fucking conversation into a debate. I strongly suspect debate club has a net negative impact on peoples social skills. It teaches a bunch of anti patterns to successful social interactions. Like, you will be shooting the shit with the lads down pub the once or twice you see them per year when this dickhead (and every…

- the one that compulsively comments on formatting without discussing the actual topic ;)

- agreed, though, that these are all flavours of trying to ‘win’ rather than actually contributing meaningfully

Re: I want to lose every debate

#84

Post by renewiltord » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 9:44 AM UTC

I actually want to win every debate. Winning is hitting delta less than something small. The whole point is for each utterance to increase information gain. Aumann's Agreement Theorem always applies so if you get IG = 0 at any stage it is worth considering if the discussion is worth it.

Additionally, verbal and textual conversations lack the depth to transmit the full state of the probabilities in your model.

Consequently, it is often useful, as a participant, to break off a miniclone of oneself to perform the information interchange and then integrate it into the rest afterwards. You can't tabula rasa the miniclone easily because of the bootstrap time but you can't retain elasticity of your true mind. A more plastic form of yourself can work well.

The problem is that this approach is susceptible to information contagion.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#85

Post by rightbyte » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 9:44 AM UTC

donkeyd wrote: post #38

tsuujin wrote: post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

> the point of a conversation is to win I have a feeling that a lot of people think this. Coming to an 'agree to disagree' is really had for some people. Sometimes there's no other option though, because both people seem to know the same facts, they just have differing opinions on how to deal with those facts. > take note of how much of the time you spend formulating a response I've been paying attention to this for…

> Coming to an 'agree to disagree' is really hard for some people

In many cases the person you talk to don't really disagree, but pretends to due to ideologic or some BS reason. Maybe they don't want to say the real reason they think X.

The "agree to disagree" is often used as an escape hatch for hypocrisy.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#86

Post by jojobas » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 9:45 AM UTC

nibbleshifter wrote: post #49

tsuujin wrote: post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

There is nothing more tedious in adult life than some debate club weenie trying to turn every random fucking conversation into a debate. I strongly suspect debate club has a net negative impact on peoples social skills. It teaches a bunch of anti patterns to successful social interactions. Like, you will be shooting the shit with the lads down pub the once or twice you see them per year when this dickhead (and every…

Debate clubs have you argue points that you don't necessarily agree with, they compete in rhetorics, not proving they are right.

A wise man argues not to prove he's right, he's arguing to become right.

Assuming (or at least allowing) your "opponent" knows something you don't is about all it takes to take a casual debate from a nuisance to learning experience.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#87

Post by jojobas » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 9:46 AM UTC

tsuujin wrote: post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

If you remain silent you potentially deny your parties the opportunity to have a profound realization.

Re: I want to lose every debate

#88

Post by coldtea » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 9:48 AM UTC

nibbleshifter wrote: post #49

tsuujin wrote: post #21

I’d like to offer an alternative framing: don’t debate at all, just listen. While high school debate did teach me many positive lessons and I am thankful that I spent four years of my life doing it, many years later I have come to understand that it also taught me something truly negative: that the point of a conversation is to win. I have put a lot of time in my adult life unlearning that trait, and reflecting on th…

There is nothing more tedious in adult life than some debate club weenie trying to turn every random fucking conversation into a debate. I strongly suspect debate club has a net negative impact on peoples social skills. It teaches a bunch of anti patterns to successful social interactions. Like, you will be shooting the shit with the lads down pub the once or twice you see them per year when this dickhead (and every…

And another favorite sign of the debating idiocy: the "this-is-a-fallacy" corrector, using fallacy lists to point "logical errors" in discussions...

Re: I want to lose every debate

#89

Post by bjarneh » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 9:51 AM UTC

> Now I want to hear everything about how clothing is like the SMTP protocol

If email is from the wrong "brand" (i.e. server); it is instantly seen as garbage and discarded by most mail hosts. If clothes are from the wrong "brand" (i.e. manufacturer); they are instantly seen as garbage and discarded by most people.

/s

Re: I want to lose every debate

#90

Post by devnullbrain » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 9:53 AM UTC

This is very self-congratulatory and fails to account for the many times where winning a debate can have greater implications than navel gazing. If the author has never encountered these, he's either very lucky or has no meaningful views against the mainstream anyway.