D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off • Hacker News Board

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#81

Post by Retric » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 6:28 AM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #53

woodruffw wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did you get that from? WMATA’s farebox recovery ratio is 24%, as of 2020[1]. Edit: And from a quick look, that’s high for the US. The average seems closer to 10-15%. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

2020 data is totally wrecked because of Covid. Check the 2019 data for comparison. Average is 39%. NY was 54%, WMATA was 39%. https://www.transit.dot.gov/sites/fta.dot.gov/files/2020-11/...

That 39% is for all transit Bus is 19.7% Nationally and 13.6% for WMATA.

Nationally in millions, Bus: (Fare Revenues 3,778) / (Operating expenses 16,110.4 + Use of capital funds 3,0444.7) = 19.7%. They also break out Bus Rapid Transit which is much worse 16.1 / (166.1 + 51.7) = 7.4% as is Commuter Bus 57.9 / (597.7 + 170.7) = 7.5%

Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority, Bus: $124,011,141 / ( $731,946,008 + $182,850,687 ) = 13.6%

So for WMATA forgoing Bus revenue wouldn’t move the needle very much.

PS: And that’s ignoring the overhead of collecting fairs. Not only are some operating expenses devoted to collecting fairs, busses can move faster if people aren’t stopping and fiddling with payment.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#82

Post by sien » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 6:28 AM UTC

loeg wrote: post #58

akandiah wrote: post #34

The farebox recovery ratio in many western nations are not enough to ever fully fund public transport. In many cases, the systems to collect fares end up costing hundreds of millions of dollars. These costs are never made back. It makes sense to make it free.

> The farebox recovery ratio in many western nations are not enough to ever fully fund public transport. True, with emphasis on fully . > In many cases, the systems to collect fares end up costing hundreds of millions of dollars. That figure seems extremely high for "many cases," but the exact figure isn't really material. > These costs are never made back. It makes sense to make it free. No, that's just not true. My…

For people interested - Farebox Recovery Ratios around the world :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

In many parts of the developed world the ratio is 30% plus which can be an enormous amount of money. In Boston fare revenue is 500M .

Making things free would cause big issues for many of them as you say.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#83

Post by SamReidHughes » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 6:30 AM UTC

vlovich123 wrote: post #67

SamReidHughes wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently a train opened up that connects downtown to where I live, not free, but ticketing isn't really enforced. There had previously been bus service, and of course, roads. Now the place is populated with bums, the nearby Starbucks removed indoor seating, the supermarket, once open 24 hours and a place for van-dwelling homeless to use computers, now has gates up to inhibit shoplifting, and what was once a safe area…

Could be correlation not causation without knowing more about the time period and geographic area you’re discussing. Homeless rates have been skyrocketing everywhere.

It happened basically as a phase change over the first month it was open. Far beyond the previous rise in local homelessness, which had happened a bit here and there, but you were never stepping over people.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#84

Post by missingcolours » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 6:32 AM UTC

ravel-bar-foo wrote: post #31

0xB31B1B wrote: post #5

Free transit is stupid. When surveyed, the huge majority (98%) of weekday transit riders say they want increased service over decreased prices. Everyone wants 10 minute or less headways. People will pay 3 dollars for a bus ride if the line has 10 minute headways or less and signal priority, but they won't take the bus if its stuck in traffic and has 30 minute headways. The reality is that transit funding for free tra…

> The reality is that transit funding for free transit is zero sum This is not necessarily true. If reducing fares increases ridership it may allow a strong case to be made for increasing the system funding.

That's usually the political calculation for free fares (aside from the virtue signaling aspect) - free fares = more riders = more political support for increased public funding.

The potential peril is that compared to the counterfactual of spending this money on improved service, free fares may attract few new riders or fail to generate additional political capital, or even lead to reduced funding if transit starts to be seen as a welfare expenditure rather than a system for everyone that pays for itself to some degree.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#85

Post by rippercushions » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 6:33 AM UTC

SamReidHughes wrote: post #57

scrollaway wrote: post #29

To you all complaining about free transit, I invite you to actually look the next time you take the bus or metro at the amount of infrastructure dedicated to ticketing, validation and enforcement. I invite you to think about the amount of money spent on it. I invite you to think about the amount of time wasted by people on ticketing. The queues at ticket booths, people spending time researching what pass they want. S…

Recently a train opened up that connects downtown to where I live, not free, but ticketing isn't really enforced. There had previously been bus service, and of course, roads. Now the place is populated with bums, the nearby Starbucks removed indoor seating, the supermarket, once open 24 hours and a place for van-dwelling homeless to use computers, now has gates up to inhibit shoplifting, and what was once a safe area…

Ah yes, all of this is obviously directly and entirely the train's fault. Are you perchance American?

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#86

Post by tshaddox » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 6:36 AM UTC

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #35

tshaddox wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the fees there to actually provide a meaningful portion of the funding, or just to make rich people who don’t use public transit feel like it’s more fair because the poor people don’t get to ride for free? I’d be surprised if the fees are meaningful on many transit systems, especially if you also throw out the costs of selling the tickets and enforcement.

>”Are the fees there to actually provide a meaningful portion of the funding, or just to make rich people who don’t use public transit feel like it’s more fair because the poor people don’t get to ride for free?” It is entirely the first reason - mass transit is not cheap and fares help alleviate the burden of the subsidy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

Recovery rates are almost all under 20% in the US, and these numbers don’t even incorporate the cost of selling tickets and ticket enforcement or the costs of the initial builds and expansions (which are almost entirely paid for by the taxpayer).

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#87

Post by jkestner » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 6:36 AM UTC

SamReidHughes wrote: post #57

scrollaway wrote: post #29

To you all complaining about free transit, I invite you to actually look the next time you take the bus or metro at the amount of infrastructure dedicated to ticketing, validation and enforcement. I invite you to think about the amount of money spent on it. I invite you to think about the amount of time wasted by people on ticketing. The queues at ticket booths, people spending time researching what pass they want. S…

Recently a train opened up that connects downtown to where I live, not free, but ticketing isn't really enforced. There had previously been bus service, and of course, roads. Now the place is populated with bums, the nearby Starbucks removed indoor seating, the supermarket, once open 24 hours and a place for van-dwelling homeless to use computers, now has gates up to inhibit shoplifting, and what was once a safe area…

Homelessness is also a problem that needs to be addressed! But probably not by shuttling it elsewhere.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#88

Post by arcticbull » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 6:40 AM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #39

rayiner wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fares revenues make up half of WMATA’s operating budget, which is on the low side. The London Tube fully covers its operating costs.

Where did you get that from? WMATA’s farebox recovery ratio is 24%, as of 2020[1]. Edit: And from a quick look, that’s high for the US. The average seems closer to 10-15%. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

fwiw, Caltrain's farebox recovery rate going into COVID was among the highest in the US at around 73%. Bart around 72%. WMATA was about 33%. Muni is among the lowest at 23%. [1]

I agree farebox recovery rate is not something to optimize for. Public services don't lose money, they cost money. Nobody talks about how much the army loses.

However. The choice was between (a) eliminating the $666M farebox recovery and taking it out of the municipal budget vs. adding $666M more funding without eliminating the farebox take. I strongly suspect the municipality would be far better served by the latter.

The former plan doesn't address what people actually want. They want shorter headways. Instead they got the same headways, but cheaper.

People aren't avoiding transit because it's too expensive. They're avoiding transit because it doesn't come often enough, it doesn't go where they need and stops running too early. It doesn't meet their needs. The average American spends $11,000 on a new car per year [2], or almost a half million dollars lifetime. If service was better, they wouldn't have to. This plan doesn't make service better. So, they still need their real cost center: their car.

[1] https://www.enotrans.org/article/the-mass-transit-fiscal-cli...

[2] https://newsroom.aaa.com/2022/08/annual-cost-of-new-car-owne...

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#89

Post by SamReidHughes » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 6:40 AM UTC

jkestner wrote: post #87

SamReidHughes wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently a train opened up that connects downtown to where I live, not free, but ticketing isn't really enforced. There had previously been bus service, and of course, roads. Now the place is populated with bums, the nearby Starbucks removed indoor seating, the supermarket, once open 24 hours and a place for van-dwelling homeless to use computers, now has gates up to inhibit shoplifting, and what was once a safe area…

Homelessness is also a problem that needs to be addressed! But probably not by shuttling it elsewhere.

You know, I tried, but whenever I tell the bums they need to address this problem, they start cursing and throwing ketchup packets at me.

Re: D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit systems take off

#90

Post by wahern » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 6:41 AM UTC

Bluecobra wrote: post #43

mertd wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If fuel tax is enough why do we keep passing trillion dollar infra bills and allocating majority of it to road repair?

The current fuel tax (in the USA) not enough. Federal fuel taxes have not been raised in 30 years and not adjusted for inflation/cost of living. I’m sure it would be a political death wish to try to raise it again. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_Sta...

Fuel tax is complicated by the fact that poorer families tend to live further away from work and thus drive more, both because housing is cheaper the further away from a city you get, but also because non-skilled labor doesn't aggregate along transit corridors the same way it does for office workers. So a low fuel tax is in effect a subsidy to the poor, notwithstanding that it also benefits corporations which maintain the infrastructure. You can see this in every part of the world--cheap fuel is the easiest way to placate the working class.

Public transit can be a remedy, but outside Manhattan I don't think any locale in the U.S. has remotely the density to make it truly viable at scale for the poor and working classes. Obviously public transit is critical for some poorer subgroups, but those groups tend to be the ones trapped in ghettos. To truly bridge the gap so public transit is a substitute for fuel subsidies would require an order of magnitude increase in the size and reach of our public transit networks, plus a dramatic shift in zoning to reduce the costs of housing in urbanized areas, plus a dramatic shift in geographical demographics. Note that poor and working classes will hold onto the white picket fence ideal for much longer than the middle classes. So you're dealing with very strong counter-veiling pressures when it comes to the groups you're attempting to help the most.