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Analog computing may be coming back

bellmar.medium.com

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Re: Analog computing may be coming back

#81
From Travis Blalock (first real optical mouse) Oral History:

"each array element had nearest neighbor connectivity so you would calculate nine correlations, an autocorrelation and eight cross-correlations, with each of your eight nearest neighbors, the diagonals and the perpendicular, and then you could interpolate in correlation space where the best fit was. "

"And the reason we did difference squared instead of multiplication is because in the analog domain I could implement a difference-squared circuit with six transistors and so I was like “Okay, six transistors. I can’t do multiplication that cheaply so sold, difference squared, that’s how we’re going to do it.”

"little chip running in the 0.8 micron CMOS could do the equivalent operations per second to 1-1/2 giga operations per second and it was doing this for under 200 milliwatts, nothing you could have approached at that time in the digital domain."

Avago H2000 chip did all the heavy lifting _in analog domain_. No DSP, it was too expensive for digital domain (cost of first civilian handheld GPS receivers also doing heavy autocorrelation, 1998 Garmin StreetPilot was $400-550 retail).

Re: Analog computing may be coming back

#82
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Now build a robot that measures AC for you and you have an API for your analog computer. This line made me laugh out loud, but what an amazing explanation and set of examples. Thank you. The original ECU in my 1980 Datsun ... is digital, right? I just never thought of the insane analog vacuum pot system that controls the cold start valve and the air conditioning selector and the cruise control to also be a "comput…

Glad to get a chuckle. I was more more proud of my reproducible builds jab. Does a 1980's Datsun have an ECU? That's not obvious to me. Even a 6502 would be an expensive add on at the time given car margins. Maybe a one bit controller? But there are analog solutions to all these control situations. And you don't need vacuum tubes! Measuring and adjusting the fuel-air mix is the carburetor's job. The carb doesnt just…

>Does a 1980's Datsun have an ECU?

of course https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/63812-1980-280zx-e...

picture https://www.electro-tech-online.com/attachments/4-ecu-full-s... a ton of Hitachi chips, big one on top seems to be some kind of ADC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JECS build on BOSH license using Hitachi HD46802P (Motorola 6802 clone). Here reverse engineered https://github.com/eccs-reengineering/280ZX-Turbo-ECCS

Bosh shipped analog controlled d-jetronic in 1967 based on US patents/designs from fifties https://jetronic.org/index.php/en/d-jetronic/51-history.

Afaik first mass produced digital ECU was shipped by GM in 1978 (Motorola 6802 based). Ford also shipped some Toshiba ECUs in 1979. Bosh first fully digital ECU (Intel 8051 based) was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motronic in 1979 like Datsun/Nissan. Ford went full ECU in 1983 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_8061)

Re: Analog computing may be coming back

#83
As I understand it, analog computing is entirely impractical simply from a Information Theoretic viewpoint.

For a signal to convey 8-bits worth of information, it will need to have 256 distinct levels. It we want the signal to range from, lets say, 0 to 5v (which is already quite high), each level only has about 2mV range. This much can easily come from cross-talk, EMI and power supply noise. So all your logic/calculation will be wrong.

Once you start talking about 16 bits, it becomes entirely ridiculous: we now can only have 75uV range for each level. This is getting into RF interference territory - just receiving a phone call close to such an analog signal would disrupt it.

The way I understand it, there is simply not enough SNR available in our electronics (on die traces or PCB traces) for analog computing to work. Thats why we restrict the number of level we use in our signal: digital being just two level, but even with higher level-counts, we typically use 4 levels or 8. This is somewhat analog, but not really.

I am not an EE, so I am entirely open to being corrected on this.

Re: Analog computing may be coming back

#84
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Analog computers are like LP records: only good for nostalgia.

Depth of sound, long term storage, ease of navigation, there are lots of reasons people prefer vinyl that aren't based in nostalgia.

LPs are really bad at "long term storage".

You can read them without damaging them slightly. You can't make a perfect copy, so when the vinyl detoriates, you will not be able to "make a fresh copy".

CDs can be copied perfectly and can be moved to superior tech, e.g. SSD. You can continue copying a digital version for the next 1000 years without any loss.

Re: Analog computing may be coming back

#85

Analog will likely come back but for other reasons: Neural networks don't require precise calculations and Hintons forward forward networks put into hardware would be several orders of magnitudes more efficient, even without photons. "AI inferencing is heavily dependent on multiply/accumulate operations, which are highly efficient in analog." If you know of any startup working on this let me know because I'd love to…

Coincidentally, I recently posted a collection of neuromorphic job openings to LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/brian-anderson-6739ba25_neuro...

My team at Intel Labs is hiring, as are a number of well-funded startups.

Re: Analog computing may be coming back

#86
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh, this frustrates me. You are just saying that the _mix_ put on vinyl is better than the mix put on CD. That same mix put on CD would be even better due to higher fidelity of the format. Vinyl is a strictly worse format... unfortunately it's also an easier source of better mixes.

Not a vinyl purist, but the argument is that the same mix sounds different pressed into vinyl vs burned to disc because they reproduce the frequencies differently when read. You would have to engineer the CD mix differently to match the sound of the vinyl.

That's backwards. You mix, and then master to your format. When you master to vinyl, you inherently lose data because the needle will pop off the track if it's too loud or there's too much bass. You literally don't have to do anything like that when you master for digital. You just make it sound good and you're done.

Re: Analog computing may be coming back

#87
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a vinyl purist, but the argument is that the same mix sounds different pressed into vinyl vs burned to disc because they reproduce the frequencies differently when read. You would have to engineer the CD mix differently to match the sound of the vinyl.

That's backwards. You mix, and then master to your format. When you master to vinyl, you inherently lose data because the needle will pop off the track if it's too loud or there's too much bass. You literally don't have to do anything like that when you master for digital. You just make it sound good and you're done.

I believe I read that when mixing for vinyl they presume higher grade speakers than those of CD owners so they optimise for the assumed audio setup of the format buyers.

Which is a shame for me since I have a entry-level-audiophile setup and just stream and have little desire in getting into vinyl.

Re: Analog computing may be coming back

#88
post #87
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's backwards. You mix, and then master to your format. When you master to vinyl, you inherently lose data because the needle will pop off the track if it's too loud or there's too much bass. You literally don't have to do anything like that when you master for digital. You just make it sound good and you're done.

I believe I read that when mixing for vinyl they presume higher grade speakers than those of CD owners so they optimise for the assumed audio setup of the format buyers. Which is a shame for me since I have a entry-level-audiophile setup and just stream and have little desire in getting into vinyl.

That's false.

Re: Analog computing may be coming back

#89
post #82
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to get a chuckle. I was more more proud of my reproducible builds jab. Does a 1980's Datsun have an ECU? That's not obvious to me. Even a 6502 would be an expensive add on at the time given car margins. Maybe a one bit controller? But there are analog solutions to all these control situations. And you don't need vacuum tubes! Measuring and adjusting the fuel-air mix is the carburetor's job. The carb doesnt just…

>Does a 1980's Datsun have an ECU? of course https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/63812-1980-280zx-e... picture https://www.electro-tech-online.com/attachments/4-ecu-full-s... a ton of Hitachi chips, big one on top seems to be some kind of ADC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JECS build on BOSH license using Hitachi HD46802P (Motorola 6802 clone). Here reverse engineered https://github.com/eccs-reengineering/280ZX…

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