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How transportation technologies shaped empires

unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com

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Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#81

“England with its American colonies” as an example of overstretching this limit? Once again, when explaining a historic trend or event in terms of what happened in the US, we forget about the existence of the control case: Canada.

>we forget about the existence of the control case: Canada. Is it though? England did lose Canada to home-rule. In fact, I contend that a major reason why a newly independent (but also broke and fledgling) Canada was not annexed by the US was mainly because of the American preoccupation with civil war and Reconstruction, and the diplomatic efforts of John A. Macdonald.

They lost it to home rule only after it took less than a month to travel there with steam ships, right?

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#83
post #17
post #3

The logic seems sound to me, with a few obvious caveats: * The number of samples is small. There aren't a lot of empires throughout history. * The definition of "empire" is somewhat subjective, because empire sizes exhibit a Zipf distribution, and the cutoff is arbitrary. * Surely there have been other factors at play besides time to travel from the capital. One implication is that empires that span the globe are muc…

But for future interplanetary colonization, the rule would become one light month. Not very far. But imagine any form of communication taking years to bounce back and forth. That could not be centrally governed. It might not just be travel time, but it probably does correlate.

Have you read much Le Guin by any chance? This is a theme I've seen in her work.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#84

My understanding is that the British Raj was several months away from London?

From what I can find: In 1858 – when the British Raj was established – it took about half a year since you had to go around cape the good hope. After the Suez canal opened in 1869 it took only ~2 months. In the following two decades expansion of the train network and faster steamboats further reduced it to about 2 weeks. So it really depends a bit on which period you're talking about as there were lots of things goin…

Here's a data point for you - Galton's Isochronic Passage Chart, showing the time in days to travel from London to the rest of the world, in 1881. (12 years after the Suez opened, and the map shows how useful that canal was.)

Map at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isochrone_map linking to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isochrone_map#/media/File:Isoc... .

Eastern Indian is 20-30 days. Batavia is about 30 days. Perth and Hong Kong are in the 30-40 day range. Sydney and most of the interior of Australia is in the 40+ day range, as is New Zealand's South Island.

"It assumes that there are favourable travel conditions and that travel arrangements over land have been made in advance. It assumes travelling methods of the day within a reasonable cost."

EDIT: https://archive.org/details/friendsreviewrel06lewi/page/702/... from 1853 lists routes from London to Calcutta ("Friends' review; a religious, literary and miscellaneous journal", p702):

"The distance from London to Calcutta, by the Cape of Good Hope, is 15,000 miles requiring 150 days. With steam say 70 days." ["150 days" agrees with your "about half a year."]

"The distance from London to Calcutta, by Cape Horn, is 21,500 miles requiring 215 days. With steam say 90 days."

"From Liverpool to Calcutta, by Isthmus of Panama, 14,00 miles requiring 140 days. Steam, say 60 days."

"London to Calcutta, overland route, five trans-shipments, 6,000 miles, 58 days"

"Liverpool, New York, and Railway to San Francisco, two transhipments, 12,000 miles, 35 days."

It's from a piece arguing for the usefulness of building a railway across the US (New York to San Francisco), to shorten the London/Calcutta route. That last route didn't exist until 1869, the same year the Suez Canal opened.

EDIT #2: https://archive.org/details/sim_the-lancet_january-3-june-26... has someone leaving London June 1817 and arriving Calcutta 2 December 1817, so about 5 1/2 months. (The Lancet January 3-June 26, 1852, p384, "Biographical Sketch of James Ranald Martin, Esq., F.R.S.")

EDIT #3: The clipper ship Jane Pirie, built 1847, could do the round-trip in "eight months and a half ... the ordinary time occupied over the voyage being ten to eleven months." https://archive.org/details/sim_illustrated-london-news_1851... /mode/2up?q=%22London+to+Calcutta%22 ("Illustrated London News 1851-04-05: Vol 18 Iss 477"). As I understand it, clipper travel would have been fast and expensive.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#85
I think there’s an xkcd on modeling complex systems with a single parameter: https://xkcd.com/793/.

More seriously, I think the predictive power of this hypothesis is low. Clearly travel time is important to maintaining a connected empire but it’s probably not the limiting factor.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#86

My understanding is that the British Raj was several months away from London?

British Raj is a great argument for the article, started in 1858 and lasted less than a century, a blip in the historical context, as power projection was a recurring problem.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#87
post #68
post #56

Somebody calculate a light month.

It’s about 5000 AU. That means an Earth based space empire could encompass the entire solar system, but the limit of its reach would only extend part way into the Oort Cloud. Beyond this would be a lawless frontier. Since this is based on the speed of light, it could be the maximum size for any empire in the universe without the use of some kind of FTL technology.

> Since this is based on the speed of light, it could be the maximum size for any empire in the universe without the use of some kind of FTL technology.

That assumes that the "1 month from capital" is universal. Maybe humans are just quarrelsome, and if uplifted capybaras would rule an empire they could keep it together even if their empire has a 2 year radius. Who knows.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right of course but I think Canada is a pretty unique case. Canada exists in huge part because of the american revolution. British-american loyalists have basically founded upper Canada, which is now Ontario, so it makes sense that they were particularly close to the throne and the British homeland and government. French-canada was also just recently conquered and placated by the Quebec Act, but still tried a…

> You are right of course but I think Canada is a pretty unique case. As opposed to Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa?

Yes, if you read the rest of my comment I explained why. Canada has had a very big (relatively speaking) influx of deeply loyal british-american refugees that often directly fought the revolutionaries down south.

That meant that the early history of english canada was very deeply influenced by an almost identity defining loyalism to britain, because those refugees often left everything behind in the US to stay loyal the crown. In a way, being british was the entire point of early anglocanadian identity.

I think that makes it pretty different from Australia, a penal colony and South Africa which was conquered more than colonized (and was very hard to hold on for the british). I was more trying to explain why Canada was an outlier in the Americas, and how Britain managed to hold it very easily for so long, even with a free population and little direct military occupation.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#89

My understanding is that the British Raj was several months away from London?

Let alone that the Portuguese were in Brazil, and the Spanish in the _Philippines_, for some 300 years

There's so many exceptions. Does the article address any of these?

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#90

Portugal conquered Goa in 1510 -- that's more than a month of travel. The Netherlands conquering Java in 1619? A lot more than a month. And these conquests lasted for centuries.

I'm not sure capturing and holding an island would constitute an empire.

Java is a pretty big island just saying.
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