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Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

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Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#81

Post by egeozcan »

alkonaut wrote: post #60
analog31 wrote: post #25

Granted a passenger car is not a heavy truck or bus, but living in the upper Midwest, I've learned that snow tires make a huge difference for winter driving. I'd heard the folklore that snow tires are more important than all wheel drive for handling on both snow and ice, and having used them for a few years now, I'm a believer. So called "all season" tires are not snow tires. You can get a complete set of snow tires,…

I never understood the opposition to good winter tires. Apart from the chore of shifting, and the added investment of an extra set of rims (usually), the cost of the tires isn't any larger over the long term. You wear two sets of tires interchangably so they last longer.

Storage here in the city can be costly if you don't have a suitable garage.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#82

Post by supermatt »

adql wrote: post #69
supermatt wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AWD != 4x4. AWD + traction control absolutely helps driving on snow and ice with appropriate tyres. If you are driving with summer tyres on ice, then of course you are going to be skittering all over the place. When going downhill on ice, again your tyres are going to make ALL the difference. You shouldnt be trying to stop going downhill on ice anyway. You should be descending at a constant and controlled speed.

> AWD != 4x4. AWD + traction control absolutely helps driving on snow and ice with appropriate tyres. Too late buddy. The way manufacturers abused AWD, 4WD and 4x4 terms they can mean anything now

Which manufacturer is using AWD incorrectly?

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#83

Post by alkonaut »

egeozcan wrote: post #81
alkonaut wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood the opposition to good winter tires. Apart from the chore of shifting, and the added investment of an extra set of rims (usually), the cost of the tires isn't any larger over the long term. You wear two sets of tires interchangably so they last longer.

Storage here in the city can be costly if you don't have a suitable garage.

I always kept my winter tires in my typical 2x2x2m basement/attic storage belonging to the apartment. Storage would be $50/yr otherwise. I imagine it would be a lot more on Manhattan - but as a fraction of total rent it would probably be less!

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#84

Post by maztaim »

I was a firefighter in a past life. These were installed on all our engines and trucks. They worked OK in snowy conditions up to an inch or so, then thy stopped having enough clearance to throw under the tire. We rarely used them and made sure to follow forecasts closely and chain half our equipment in anticipation. Anecdotally, these may work OK in areas where snow is not as common or often, but wind up next to useless where they might otherwise be considered helpful.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#85

Post by supermatt »

alkonaut wrote: post #80
supermatt wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not outdated. There may be multiple variations on AWD (as i mentioned, some can vary power to individual wheels, rather than just the axles), but 4WD (or 4x4) is categorically not AWD.

Doesn't traction control further blur that? Given that traction control is now required almost everywhere, and involves cutting power to individual wheels (Not like ESP using brakes), at what point does traction control cutting power to individual wheels or axles dynamically in a 4x4/4WD system make it an "AWD" instead? Perhaps those vehicles that use 4x4 in the tradtional sense are such that you have to engage it an…

Traction control on an AWD system can be composed of power management (overall torque output), power distribution (how much power goes to each axle/wheel) and braking (slowing down individual wheels).

Traction control on a 4WD can only consist of power management and braking, because there is no way to vary the distribution (otherwise it would be AWD, not 4WD).

There are some systems that under certain conditions will switch from 2WD to 4WD. Those systems are NOT considered AWD and dont have the benefits thereof.

FYI, ESP (Electronic Stability Program) is just a brand term for an ESC (Electronic Stability Control) which covers both TCS and ABS. When people talk about "traction control" they usually mean the entire ESC subsystem.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#86

Post by ungamedplayer »

smhinsey wrote: post #33
throwaway892238 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI there is a new category of tire called "all weather", which have the little mountain-snowflake symbol used for snow tires. They're basically all-seasons rated for snow. I haven't seen a comparison against pure snow tires, but they do perform much better than all-seasons in snow.

Do you mean the 3 mountain snowflake rating? I recently switched from some AT tires without it to those with it and while they definitely don't rise to the level of snow tires, the 3 mountain snowflake rating does seem to be legit. I don't do anything extreme in the snow but I don't want to turn around, either, and they go further than similar AT tires without.

Do you get both sets of tyres balanced?

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#87

Post by alkonaut »

supermatt wrote: post #85
alkonaut wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't traction control further blur that? Given that traction control is now required almost everywhere, and involves cutting power to individual wheels (Not like ESP using brakes), at what point does traction control cutting power to individual wheels or axles dynamically in a 4x4/4WD system make it an "AWD" instead? Perhaps those vehicles that use 4x4 in the tradtional sense are such that you have to engage it an…

Traction control on an AWD system can be composed of power management (overall torque output), power distribution (how much power goes to each axle/wheel) and braking (slowing down individual wheels). Traction control on a 4WD can only consist of power management and braking, because there is no way to vary the distribution (otherwise it would be AWD, not 4WD). There are some systems that under certain conditions wil…

I think part of why I consider them to be one and the same is because in the total absence of "true" 4WD/4x4 (approximately no one drives pickup trucks in Europe, I'm guessing that's where the true 4x4 still lives in the US) so the 4WD/2WD moniker has been used for 2WD/AWD as in "Will you get the 2WD or 4WD tesla is used somewhat sloppily?". It seems car manufacturers though are still careful not to call anything 4WD or 4x4 when it's not.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#88

Post by sandworm101 »

analog31 wrote: post #25

Granted a passenger car is not a heavy truck or bus, but living in the upper Midwest, I've learned that snow tires make a huge difference for winter driving. I'd heard the folklore that snow tires are more important than all wheel drive for handling on both snow and ice, and having used them for a few years now, I'm a believer. So called "all season" tires are not snow tires. You can get a complete set of snow tires,…

It is not folklore. Take it from someone who lives in the actual north. My car doesnt see bare pavement for months. A two wheel drive car, with snow tires, will run rings around a 4x4 with summer tires. Chains are great, but have speed and distance limitations. We drive at 50mph/80kph on snow, on highways even faster. (Drive on snow every day and you get used to it.) No chain set will last long at such speeds. They are tools for short term issues like getting through a mountain pass.

A less understood aspect of snow tires is their flexibility in cold. A summer tire will stiffen up below -30. Park it overnight and it will have a flat spot the next morning. It will bounce the car until enough heat builds up in the tire for it to soften. The higher silicon content of proper winter tires prevents this.

This type of driving, except whitehorse is much warmer than where i am (our rivers/lakes remain frozen): https://youtu.be/a_hmPxBUZvc

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#89

Post by [deleted] »

alkonaut wrote: post #87
supermatt wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traction control on an AWD system can be composed of power management (overall torque output), power distribution (how much power goes to each axle/wheel) and braking (slowing down individual wheels). Traction control on a 4WD can only consist of power management and braking, because there is no way to vary the distribution (otherwise it would be AWD, not 4WD). There are some systems that under certain conditions wil…

I think part of why I consider them to be one and the same is because in the total absence of "true" 4WD/4x4 (approximately no one drives pickup trucks in Europe, I'm guessing that's where the true 4x4 still lives in the US) so the 4WD/2WD moniker has been used for 2WD/AWD as in "Will you get the 2WD or 4WD tesla is used somewhat sloppily?". It seems car manufacturers though are still careful not to call anything 4WD…

[deleted]

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#90

Post by supermatt »

alkonaut wrote: post #87
supermatt wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traction control on an AWD system can be composed of power management (overall torque output), power distribution (how much power goes to each axle/wheel) and braking (slowing down individual wheels). Traction control on a 4WD can only consist of power management and braking, because there is no way to vary the distribution (otherwise it would be AWD, not 4WD). There are some systems that under certain conditions wil…

I think part of why I consider them to be one and the same is because in the total absence of "true" 4WD/4x4 (approximately no one drives pickup trucks in Europe, I'm guessing that's where the true 4x4 still lives in the US) so the 4WD/2WD moniker has been used for 2WD/AWD as in "Will you get the 2WD or 4WD tesla is used somewhat sloppily?". It seems car manufacturers though are still careful not to call anything 4WD…

Lots of "true" 4WD vehicles in europe. Also, lots of AWD vehicles with lockable centre differentials (which effectively makes them 4WD when needed).

But thats not your typical SUV, no.

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