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As unions decline, inequality rises

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Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#81

Post by next_xibalba »

Devasta wrote: post #63
mannyv wrote: post #22

What does inequality mean in this context? The USSR, North Korea, and Cuba all have/had lower levels of inequality than the west...by making everyone poor. That is the easy way to reduce inequality/ What the left fails to realize is that absolute inequality doesn't matter. The real questions is the vast majority feel better off? In China, hundreds of millions are wealthier than they were two generations ago. They hav…

There are some things, like political campaigns, where absolute inequality does matter. One man one vote may be true in theory, but in practice Rupert Murdoch has fat more political sway than anyone on this thread precisely because of his wealth.

This is shocking news to me. How many extra votes does Rupert Murdoch get? What is the exchange rate from dollars to votes, precisely?

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#82

Post by sopooneo »

next_xibalba wrote: post #81
Devasta wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some things, like political campaigns, where absolute inequality does matter. One man one vote may be true in theory, but in practice Rupert Murdoch has fat more political sway than anyone on this thread precisely because of his wealth.

This is shocking news to me. How many extra votes does Rupert Murdoch get? What is the exchange rate from dollars to votes, precisely?

I don't know these numbers, but I bet someone on Murdoch's staff does, at a statistical level.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#83

Post by JustSomeNobody »

Zeyka wrote: post #3

I will never understand how some working class Americans can be against unions, maybe they just see themselves as embarrassed millionaires that would want to crush their workers to squeeze money out of them? It's probably my European brain, but I cannot understand how someone, say Jerry, 60 year old factory worker from idaho, can be against unions...

I think it in part comes from being trained generation after generation that if I work harder than you, I deserve more than you. So if people want to make things more equal, I will have worked so hard for nothing and that makes me unhappy.

* Note: I used "I", but I don't personally feel this way. If I found out a fast food worker made more than me as an engineer, I wouldn't care. In some ways they work harder. Also, I don't think CEOs bring as much worth to a company as engineers do and they make way more, so...

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#84

Post by argiopetech »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #39
jasode wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's probably my European brain, but I cannot understand how someone [...] can be against unions... America unions are structured differently from Europe and some can become as distrusted by the workers as the corporation. Your viewpoint is common but it's based on the mental model of "Unions are good. Period end of story." But for voters like your proverbial Jerry against unions, the mental model is more about trad…

> How can pro-union advocates counter those disillusioned union coal miners spreading negative information like that? Because coal mining is in no way the same as Amazon’s retail business? Now, I will say, some of these folks are beyond hope. In an energy transition documentary done by one of the HGTV property brothers, they interview a coal miner dying of black lung in Appalachia, and they believe that’s the job the…

Both involve manual labor acquiring, packing, and shipping valuable good for use by others; in enclosed areas, surrounded by large, dangerous equipment; where workers are paid below the perceived value of the position, and with top management who grow richer daily while ignoring the plight of the "little man"...

I'd rather work in the warehouse, personally, but I can certainly see how the positions are analogous to the level we could compare expected results of a union.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#85

Post by sopooneo »

thepasswordis wrote: post #41
ljw1001 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your characterization of unions is a propaganda driven falsehood, and your argument ignores the fact that Most people see less and less of the fruits of their labor.

Quoted post unavailable.

Does PMC stand for "Professional Managerial Class"?

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#86

Post by pjmlp »

throwaway6734 wrote: post #68
pjmlp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spotify, SAP, Skype, Unity, Sitecore, OutSystems, Bayer, Pfizer, Nokia, Ericson, Vodafone.... Managed just fine.

Do you think tech companies are more likely to come out of Europe or the US?

Moving goal posts, but yeah, Europe lacks a SV with venture capitalists raining money on every crazy idea, with Tony Stark like feudal lords pushing their minions to sleep in office with promises of free drinks and pizza, hoping to capitalize on the startup being sold.

Thankfully.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#87

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

bombolo wrote: post #32
thepasswordis wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally the people who are advocating for a union are doing it to level the playing field for themselves against you.

Yes for example an immigrant that is under threat of being deported might want a more level playing field.

Historically, unions in the United States have been strongly anti-immigrant because they were seen as competitors who lowered wages. Anyone who has been on HN long enough has seen the undercurrent of anti-H-1B sentiment whenever the topic comes up and a union would bring that nastiness and racism out to center stage.

No, no immigrants in tech are going to want to vote for a union because a lot of its members think immigrants are part of the playing field that needs to be "leveled".

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#88

Post by indiogrindio »

mannyv wrote: post #22

What does inequality mean in this context? The USSR, North Korea, and Cuba all have/had lower levels of inequality than the west...by making everyone poor. That is the easy way to reduce inequality/ What the left fails to realize is that absolute inequality doesn't matter. The real questions is the vast majority feel better off? In China, hundreds of millions are wealthier than they were two generations ago. They hav…

> 90% of humanity would vehemently disagree with that.

> The USSR, North Korea, and Cuba all have/had lower levels of inequality than the west

> In China, hundreds of millions are wealthier than they were two generations ago. They have increased absolute inequaliry and increased equality at the same time.

Sources? Do you have any data or metrics available for your claims (outside of Facebook memes)?

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#89

Post by goodpoint »

dzink wrote: post #25

World War II was a much bigger reason and a cause for this. There is a problem with correlation vs causation in the article’s logic. I’d argue the unions were a bi-product of a historically rare moment in time vs cause of equality. The market bust and global world war increased taxation, demand for workers, and value of each worker in the early 40s. Much more importantly, for a few decades after WWII all other global…

> There is a problem with correlation vs causation in the article’s logic

No, there isn't. The causation is self-evident, and also unsurprising since it's the whole point of unions.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#90

Post by gfdsgfsdgfdsg »

throw0101c wrote: post #52
mannyv wrote: post #22

What does inequality mean in this context? The USSR, North Korea, and Cuba all have/had lower levels of inequality than the west...by making everyone poor. That is the easy way to reduce inequality/ What the left fails to realize is that absolute inequality doesn't matter. The real questions is the vast majority feel better off? In China, hundreds of millions are wealthier than they were two generations ago. They hav…

> What does inequality mean in this context? Everything going to the top, and nothing going to those on the bottom. > The USSR, North Korea, and Cuba all have/had lower levels of inequality than the west...by making everyone poor. Seems like your examples also have things going to the people at the top. A comment from a few years ago that I saved: > If we suppose that the goal of society is to produce the greatest ut…

Why aren't poor Americans immigrating elsewhere if they have "nothing"? The poor in other countries are risking their lives to come to America.
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