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Iranian Officials Asking Venezuela for Asylum in Case of Regime Change

iranintl.com

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Re: Iranian Officials Asking Venezuela for Asylum in Case of Regime Change

#81

Post by steveBK123 »

themitigating wrote: post #2

It's so weird to me how rare it is that the leaders of countries are executed by the population and to even call for that upsets people regardless of what their reign is like. There's almost no incentive to be a good leader since if it all falls apart you'll just end up living luxuriously in another country. Why is there such a high value placed on human life that ignores the impact that person had upon the world? Fe…

Looking at US vs China, and situations like this.. more and more I think the function of democracy is not so much to install good leaders, but to uninstall bad leaders more rapidly.

No democracy could have maintained Xi's zero-covid policy for nearly 3 years.

Re: Iranian Officials Asking Venezuela for Asylum in Case of Regime Change

#83

Post by mindslight »

citilife wrote: post #80
mindslight wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but this fear of "ending up like Gaddafi" still doesn't doesn't make for a justification, or even an explanation, of why Putin thought it was a good idea to invade a neighboring country. Egging "The West" on made that worry much closer to becoming real. If Putin wanted to be left alone, he's done the exact wrong thing. I think the fuller explanation is that Putin got drunk on his own Kool-aid of successful prop…

I think Putin was actually extremely clear why he invaded Ukraine. NATO was expanding to Russia's border https://nypost.com/2021/12/23/putin-demands-nato-not-expand-... Ukraine was hostile to the Russian people, banning their language in schools and refusing to uphold neutrality. France tried to broker a deal before the war broke out (upholding the Minsk agreements). https://www.wsj.com/articles/putin-to-meet-macron-…

Well, I guess that was my fault for giving you an opening to dump all the thoroughly-debunked copypasta. In the post-WWII international order where lines on the map are generally respected to avoid war: Russia attacked, and continues to attack, a sovereign country. Period.

If you pull it into some other paradigm than the post-WWII international order, where Russia presumably has some inherent right of conquest, then sure, you can come up with justifications of why Russia "had" to act. But as I alluded to in my last comment, if you are an American or European taking that post-WWII order for granted, you are gravely mistaken.

Re: Iranian Officials Asking Venezuela for Asylum in Case of Regime Change

#84

Post by saint_fiasco »

luckylion wrote: post #16
saint_fiasco wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is that if the leader can live luxuriously in another country, they have an incentive to stop being a bad leader and retire in luxury already. If bad leaders got executed, then the incentive for bad leaders would be to stay in power no matter the cost. The reason dictatorships turn murderous when they lose popularity is that the dictator knows they will be killed if the opposition wins, so they have no choic…

> The idea is that if the leader can live luxuriously in another country, they have an incentive to stop being a bad leader and retire in luxury already. That sounds plausible, but does it actually happen? I mean, tyrants have certainly fled the country to live somewhere else and retire their ambitions, but have they ever done so peacefully?

Stroessner ruled Paraguay for a long time, but when he was old and his generals staged a coup against him he only gave token resistance and fled to Brazil right away. As far as I know he lived peacefully there until he died.

He could have fought back much harder and plunged the country into a civil war like the one that got him into power in the first place. He chose to retire in wealth, comfort and peace instead.

Re: Iranian Officials Asking Venezuela for Asylum in Case of Regime Change

#85

Post by staticman2 »

themitigating wrote: post #2

It's so weird to me how rare it is that the leaders of countries are executed by the population and to even call for that upsets people regardless of what their reign is like. There's almost no incentive to be a good leader since if it all falls apart you'll just end up living luxuriously in another country. Why is there such a high value placed on human life that ignores the impact that person had upon the world? Fe…

"Why is there such a high value placed on human life that ignores the impact that person had upon the world?"

This is the wrong question. There isn't a high value on human life, the leaders are permitted to execute and kill people.

There is an incentive for people in power to not want to create a precedent for the killing of people in power, for obvious reasons of self interest.

There's also a precedent for people to live vicariously through leaders, be they a political leader or someone like Elon Musk, which can presumably lead to violence if you make them a martyr.

Re: Iranian Officials Asking Venezuela for Asylum in Case of Regime Change

#86

Post by sitkack »

JadeNB wrote: post #70
themitigating wrote: post #2

It's so weird to me how rare it is that the leaders of countries are executed by the population and to even call for that upsets people regardless of what their reign is like. There's almost no incentive to be a good leader since if it all falls apart you'll just end up living luxuriously in another country. Why is there such a high value placed on human life that ignores the impact that person had upon the world? Fe…

> Feel free to down vote but also reply with something because I think we need to reconsider the inherent value placed on human life. This is a sentence that I would hope never to have associated with me. We need to re-consider the value of people's lives … on what basis? Because of the harm they have done to others, I guess. And why is that harm so bad? Because people's lives have value, surely. But should we interr…

A civilization should be judged on how it treats the abhorrent and powerless.

Re: Iranian Officials Asking Venezuela for Asylum in Case of Regime Change

#87

Post by s1artibartfast »

themitigating wrote: post #2

It's so weird to me how rare it is that the leaders of countries are executed by the population and to even call for that upsets people regardless of what their reign is like. There's almost no incentive to be a good leader since if it all falls apart you'll just end up living luxuriously in another country. Why is there such a high value placed on human life that ignores the impact that person had upon the world? Fe…

I had an innate negative reaction to your post and had to spend some time thinking about why that is the case.

I think the biggest thing that caused it is the implicit assumption that increased fear for leaders would lead to better government outcomes. I'm not very confident that this is the case.

I think the other part that triggered me is that an implies some singular authority that is determining the value of human life and doling out justice, but choosing not to, when in fact there are practical considerations. Who would hold these leaders accountable, and how? If leaders flee to venezuela, should Iran declare war on venezuela? Should the US step in and attack venezuela?

Overall, I think civilization benefits more from a population that cares about the impact leaders have on them when in office and are satisfied when they are out of power. I don't think an increased amount of bloodlust and revenge in society is ultimately prosocial.

Bloodlust and focus on revenge is a genie that's hard to put back in the bottle once it's out. Endorsing it at a state level can trickle down to how individuals behave. I wouldn't want disenfranchised voters or employees murdering anyone that they felt wronged by in the present or past

Re: Iranian Officials Asking Venezuela for Asylum in Case of Regime Change

#88

Post by staticman2 »

citilife wrote: post #80
mindslight wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but this fear of "ending up like Gaddafi" still doesn't doesn't make for a justification, or even an explanation, of why Putin thought it was a good idea to invade a neighboring country. Egging "The West" on made that worry much closer to becoming real. If Putin wanted to be left alone, he's done the exact wrong thing. I think the fuller explanation is that Putin got drunk on his own Kool-aid of successful prop…

I think Putin was actually extremely clear why he invaded Ukraine. NATO was expanding to Russia's border https://nypost.com/2021/12/23/putin-demands-nato-not-expand-... Ukraine was hostile to the Russian people, banning their language in schools and refusing to uphold neutrality. France tried to broker a deal before the war broke out (upholding the Minsk agreements). https://www.wsj.com/articles/putin-to-meet-macron-…

I don't want to blow your mind or anything but pretending to be a more moral person than you actually are is an effective way to gain power and wealth and an immoral person will not be honest about their motivations or intentions.

Re: Iranian Officials Asking Venezuela for Asylum in Case of Regime Change

#89

Post by Fatnino »

m00dy wrote: post #71
firstSpeaker wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate more on how is this related?

Turkey is clearing mines on its border for no reason and right after these operations, something big is happening. This is the relation. I hope it is clear.

How does the existence of a minefield near but not in Iran contribute to stability in Iran? How does the removal of those mines destabilized Iran?

These are obviously unrelated.

Re: Iranian Officials Asking Venezuela for Asylum in Case of Regime Change

#90

Post by AnimalMuppet »

themitigating wrote: post #2

It's so weird to me how rare it is that the leaders of countries are executed by the population and to even call for that upsets people regardless of what their reign is like. There's almost no incentive to be a good leader since if it all falls apart you'll just end up living luxuriously in another country. Why is there such a high value placed on human life that ignores the impact that person had upon the world? Fe…

If you want a bad leader out of power, and his options are to remain in power or be executed, then he's going to fight to the death. But before his death, that will cause the death of a lot of other people.

You don't think we should place any value on the dictator's life? Fine. Place some value on the lives of the people who would die to kick him out.

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