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North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS

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Re: North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS

#81
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have a GPS receiver in a fixed, known location. They measure the received signal and from the variations infer corrections for ionospheric effects. They are part of the GPS network. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNSS_augmentation

The video is data from just a single receiver?

No. These are the receivers from japan’s GEONET.[1]

“Geospatial Information Authority of Japan (GSI) operates GNSS CORSs that cover Japanese archipelago with over 1,300 stations at an average interval of about 20km for crustal deformation monitoring and GNSS surveys in Japan.” [2]

Basically the government of Japan pepered their country with GPS base stations and they let researchers use the data from them. This is just a novel use of that data.

1: https://mobile.twitter.com/tylerni7/status/15934664867144212...

2: https://www.gsi.go.jp/ENGLISH/geonet_english.html

Re: North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS

#82
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t really seem to have a detector. They have a thing which makes visualisations, and it seems it should be possible to build a detector on top of that, but that doesn’t seem to be done yet.

Oh hey I wrote this! Yeah, we had a detector with some ML stuff, it worked okay, but the main issue is there isn't much training data. Overall the false positives are quite low (visually, which is hand wavey, of course). I've not really seen a big event that was not real. I ran it for a while 24/7 and while there are "scintillations" there aren't any circular waves. False negatives are a much bigger issue. Something…

> Oh hey I wrote this!

I’m amazed by your project. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Re: North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS

#83
post #7

Is it possible someone could explain as if to a small child what data can be collected from GPS which shows this effect. I don't understand.

Section 2.1 in their linked paper ( https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/201... ) gives some clues. I think this is what's going on: GPS receivers work by figuring out how far away they are from a number (>3) of GPS satellites. The receiver knows where the GPS satellites are (since the satellites broadcast their orbit parameters) so if a receiver knows how far it is from several satellites it can…

You can go one better and filter your position data and store the data from the "worst fit" satellite. Which will usually be on the horizon or behind a thunderstorm, but not always, maybe it'll be behind a ICBM...

For made up simplified example, assume you have a moving GPS in an airplane or something, and there's exactly four sats N S W E. All four sats relatively agree you're flying the plane normally in a straight ish line as usual. Suddenly, the data from the S sat gets wildly distorted, but the other three sats remain normal. I suppose the S sat could have malfunctioned but more likely something is in between your plane and the S sat. So your navigation chip tosses the data from the S sat and marks its SNR way down and generally ignores that sat... However, if you were to log that "bad" data from the sat to the south... then compare to someone flying a plane a hundred miles to your south, and their GPS reports data suddenly was trash to their north, then you know something flew between your two planes. Maybe an ICBM, maybe a thunderstorm, maybe a GPS jammer weapon, a lot of "it depends". Sometimes its the data thats tossed out thats the most interesting.

I've been fooling around with something a LOT cruder at home WRT tracking thunderstorms. Its not rocket surgery to know that severe rain attenuation can impair GPS signals. One of the standard NMEA output lines contains each sats SNR, so if I know from my "vast" database that in normal weather satellite #43 at az 45 degrees elevation 45 degrees reports a SNR of made up number -10 plus or minus 2 over the past few years, then if it reports -20 today that would imply either the sat just burned out (unlikely) or there's a rain cloud causing "about 10 dB attenuation" at az 45 degrees elevation 45 degrees relative to my house. The linked project in the article is enormously fancier of course than merely logging SNR fluctuations.

I'm amused at the idea of crowdsourcing a "large amount" of forest hiking data over time to evaluate the health of the tree canopy in forests. Where I live the leaves are all down now so GPS signals should be very strong for hikers in forests.

As the Air Force discovered decades ago, for various EE and trigonometry reasons, bistatic radar works best overhead its kind of the opposite of what you want for an early warning radar so you can see why bistatic radar never went much of anywhere compared to traditional radar for the usual Air Force mission purposes. Although there are interesting modern "IoT" distributed sensor applications, at least if you have unimpeded fast communications systems, etc.

Re: North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS

#84
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh hey I wrote this! Yeah, we had a detector with some ML stuff, it worked okay, but the main issue is there isn't much training data. Overall the false positives are quite low (visually, which is hand wavey, of course). I've not really seen a big event that was not real. I ran it for a while 24/7 and while there are "scintillations" there aren't any circular waves. False negatives are a much bigger issue. Something…

> Oh hey I wrote this! I’m amazed by your project. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Thanks! It's mostly just been for fun, lots of academic work has already shown the principles of it.

I'm glad folks are looking at it, and enjoying it! If you have questions or anything let me know! :)

Re: North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS

#85
post #47
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If JP/SK/US did decide on military action against North Korea, I would expect China to stand back, close their border, and do nothing but make loud protest noises. They're not keen on sharing a border with a US client state. They're also not keen on a rogue North Korea with nukes. The main issue is that, even without nuclear weapons, North Korea has enough conventional arms, including chemical weapons, to cause horri…

>"If JP/SK/US did decide on military action against North Korea" NK is no longer part of NPT. Would not this war be illegal? How does it correspond with "we are the nation of laws"? >"I would expect China to stand back" And what if it does not?

NPT = Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (https://www.un.org/disarmament/wmd/nuclear/npt/) --your friendly neighborhood unusual acronym lookup robot

Re: North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS

#86

Quoted post unavailable.

They've launched them in the last year. This is really nothing new. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEgE4R_6fLU

Randomized link goes to an except of North Korea's "Korean Central TV" where NK announces their Hwasong-17 launch. It's in music video style, make of that what you will, and seems to contain a fraction of the information at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwasong-17>. It is not clear to me whether this was actually tested with a nuclear warhead, the video doesn't get more concrete than "[this is] a reliable nuclear war deterrence means" which could just mean it deters nuclear war, not that it's nuclear in itself. I don't know whether this supports the claim that it is "really" nothing new.

Re: North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS

#87
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second tweet in the linked thread links to the paper which inspired them: https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/201... > who insist on putting their code into the public domain You say that as if there is something wrong with that.

>You say that as if there is something wrong with that. So to be clear, you an arms control expert public domaining code that aids totalitarians like Putin and the North Koreans has... "nothing wrong with that"? Some domain specific knowledge was meant to be esoteric* and there are a variety of better licenses such as CC-non-commercial that allow peaceful uses of the code without allowing it to be used by literally a…

> code that aids totalitarians like Putin and the North Koreans has

This is false. Putin is not afraid of shining a very bright radar into the sky to know when missiles are about to hit them. That is the standard and reliable way to go about this.

Have you heard about the “woodpecker” signal? It was the transmission of a giant over-the-horizon early warning radar system. It is now defunct, has been replaced by more modern systems, but when it was operational you could receive it basically anywhere on Earth. That is the scale sovereigns play on.

Only people who don’t have the backing of a sovereign state need to go about detecting launches in this circumspect method.

> Some domain specific knowledge was meant to be esoteric

Yes. But this is not that.

> there are a variety of better licenses such as CC-non-commercial that allow peaceful uses of the code without allowing it to be used by literally anyone on the planet

Are you kidding me? :) In the top of your comment you worry, wrongly, about Kim and Putin using the given code. And your suggested solution is to release it under a different licence? :) You think they would care about that?

Re: North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS

#88
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh hey I wrote this! I’m amazed by your project. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Thanks! It's mostly just been for fun, lots of academic work has already shown the principles of it. I'm glad folks are looking at it, and enjoying it! If you have questions or anything let me know! :)

You mentioned on twitter[1] that there are realtime data sources which could be used to do the same kind of visualisation/detection.

What would these sources be?

1: https://twitter.com/tylerni7/status/1593466486714421249?s=20...

Re: North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS

#89
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second tweet in the linked thread links to the paper which inspired them: https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/201... > who insist on putting their code into the public domain You say that as if there is something wrong with that.

>You say that as if there is something wrong with that. So to be clear, you an arms control expert public domaining code that aids totalitarians like Putin and the North Koreans has... "nothing wrong with that"? Some domain specific knowledge was meant to be esoteric* and there are a variety of better licenses such as CC-non-commercial that allow peaceful uses of the code without allowing it to be used by literally a…

> and there are a variety of better licenses such as CC-non-commercial that allow peaceful uses of the code without allowing it to be used by literally anyone on the planet.

I don't have a fully formed opinion on the rest of your comment, however I can definitely point out that software licensing on open source software will not stop a nefarious third party from using it. They're nefarious!

To a practical point though, information asymmetry is powerful in war, but the cat was already out of the bag for this technology as it's in public papers. The code is just an application of information that was already public, they could probably write their own version of the same code based on the papers.

Re: North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS

#90
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! It's mostly just been for fun, lots of academic work has already shown the principles of it. I'm glad folks are looking at it, and enjoying it! If you have questions or anything let me know! :)

You mentioned on twitter[1] that there are realtime data sources which could be used to do the same kind of visualisation/detection. What would these sources be? 1: https://twitter.com/tylerni7/status/1593466486714421249?s=20...

The main protocol is called NTRIP. Lots of sources make it available (though it might be annoying to stream from ~250 simultaneously, not sure). There's a lot if you search that term though.

I think GEONET (the Japanese data source) might have some NTRIP casters. Also some in Korea and elsewhere. Sometimes you have to pay for access though, so I need to look more.

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