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The $205.4B Gulag

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Re: The $205.4B Gulag

#81

Post by wstuartcl »

rayiner wrote: post #24
epistasis wrote: post #15

I'd like to remind people about the terrible working conditions in extremely wealthy places such as California too. Right now, University of California grad students and researchers, who produce a massive proportion of science on the West coast, are on strike. In most locations, it's nearly impossible to pay rent on their stipends. Grad students may be in training, but they are also the source of nearly all the novel…

Comparing factory workers anywhere to grad students in California is remarkable. Grad students endure the conditions voluntarily. They would have tons of alternative options in the private sector if they chose to do that.

There may be issues on both fronts but yeah, scale does matter -- there is a difference between someone that is basically an indentured (and locked up at night) servant and a grad student that is doing research that is not making comfortable wage in a high COL area.

Re: The $205.4B Gulag

#82

Post by Invictus0 »

Etheryte wrote: post #19
daniel-s wrote: post #11

If employees hate their job so much, can't they just quit?

More often than not, no. Many of these types of factories are intentionally designed to lock workers into a never ending loop, where they're tied in living paycheck to paycheck, often paying rent for a room that's owned by the same company that runs the factory, buying food from a store that's owned by the same company, etc. There are even cases where workers get paid in cash in a custom "currency" operated by the co…

You just made all that up. The foxconn dorms are free. There is no "foxconn bucks".

Re: The $205.4B Gulag

#83

Post by wstuartcl »

legutierr wrote: post #38
rayiner wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing factory workers anywhere to grad students in California is remarkable. Grad students endure the conditions voluntarily. They would have tons of alternative options in the private sector if they chose to do that.

So graduate education should only be available to the children of the wealthy, in your opinion?

I don't think anyone is discounting the problem -- but they are reacting to the scale. Its like you jumped onto a story about a child stepping on a landmine to complain about your paper cut.

Re: The $205.4B Gulag

#84

Post by xyzzyz »

epistasis wrote: post #74
xyzzyz wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they should just quit if they don’t like it. The reason they don’t is that they are getting extra compensation in the form of status and credential they are working towards, or legal immigration status for many foreign students. It is silly to ignore these and focus exclusively on financial compensation. As a thought experiment: imagine that these grad students were offered a deal, where their pay is doubled, the…

So your position is that they should quit instead of negotiate for better conditions? Who is that better for and why? You don't provide any argument for why that's a better course of action for anybody. As somebody who benefits, indirectly, from their work, since their work benefits all of society, I'm much happier with them improving the working conditions and continuing to work, rather than quitting and losing that…

No, my position is that their situation is not so terrible as claimed by the people who compare the grad students to low paid workers in retail or manufacturing. They are compensated highly in non-financial terms.

More importantly, the main reason people negotiate with one another is that they hope to achieve better outcomes than they can with either a default of no action, or unilateral actions. Imagine that the grad students sit down to the negotiating table with the people determining they pay. They ask for higher pay, and the other side says straight up “no”, and offers no concession whatsoever. What then? At this point, the only option available to the students is threatening some form of quitting, as they don’t really have any other means of leverage.

The point here is that even if they do negotiate, they must be ready and willing to quit if they want these negotiations to go their way, and if they aren’t (and they very much aren’t, as people who are willing to quit grad school simply do exactly that), they’ll keep making a pittance in terms of cash benefits.

Re: The $205.4B Gulag

#85

Post by latchkey »

lasky wrote: post #80
epistasis wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not even close my friend. I would trust that instinct. Not sure what instinct you are referring to here. And just a reminder that when there's a strike, the people who go out to support are those with the least pay, or those who are already in unions. Trying to split grad students off from the rest of the labor force is not something that I am trying to do, if that's what you are implying. > Just a reminder, employ…

Let me ask you an honest question. If you had to wake up tomorrow, as either a foxconn iPhone factory worker, or a Berkeley graduate student, which would you pick? How different do you think those experiences are?

foxconn workers have jobs... try south sudan and living in a slum that was built because the people around you want to kill you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydnnRyPPLs4

Re: The $205.4B Gulag

#86

Post by atemerev »

lxe wrote: post #67
gameshot911 wrote: post #46

I absolutely believe we should strive to improve the lives of all living beings in the world. But purely to provide an alternative perspective and spark some lively conversation, I want to explore a different point of view: No one is forcing these workers in China to take these jobs. The workers willingly choose to take them because they are an improvement over their status quo. The jobs pay more, and offer better be…

This is a first and the simplest layer of the argument. If "just quitting" was such a great option, what's the point of the entire labor rights movement?

Indeed, what’s the point?

Re: The $205.4B Gulag

#87

Post by rayiner »

epistasis wrote: post #49
rayiner wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing factory workers anywhere to grad students in California is remarkable. Grad students endure the conditions voluntarily. They would have tons of alternative options in the private sector if they chose to do that.

Perhaps grad student workers should just struggle in silence, due to the difference in their circumstances with other workers. Or perhaps all workers should band together in solidarity due to the commonality of their circumstances.

The circumstances have little in common. Grad students are cognitive elites who put up with poor working conditions on a temporary basis en route to high status positions. They are like medical residents or overworked junior professionals in law, banking, journalism, media, etc.

You can’t have meaningful solidarity between people who aren’t similarly situated, and who have differing incentives.

Re: The $205.4B Gulag

#89

Post by Spooky23 »

lasky wrote: post #80
epistasis wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not even close my friend. I would trust that instinct. Not sure what instinct you are referring to here. And just a reminder that when there's a strike, the people who go out to support are those with the least pay, or those who are already in unions. Trying to split grad students off from the rest of the labor force is not something that I am trying to do, if that's what you are implying. > Just a reminder, employ…

Let me ask you an honest question. If you had to wake up tomorrow, as either a foxconn iPhone factory worker, or a Berkeley graduate student, which would you pick? How different do you think those experiences are?

You don’t have that option, because manufacturing and other roles was shipped to China.

That’s the leverage.

Almost of third of workers are on disability, another third have minimum wage jobs and the rest have prospects. The business model in college is taking advantage of pride of tenured professors who don’t want to teach and pushing adjunct and temporary faculty.

A lot of people don’t get it and get stuck in the academic funnel. That Berkeley grad student isn’t breaking her body, but is sacrificing core working years, mostly to support the $$ faculty and administration.

Long term, especially in humanities, you won’t have tenured professors, just some assistant professors on two year contracts grinding a meager living along with with sucker grad students who either don’t get it or need the work to keep a visa.

Re: The $205.4B Gulag

#90

Post by Spooky23 »

xyzzyz wrote: post #68
epistasis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps grad student workers should just struggle in silence, due to the difference in their circumstances with other workers. Or perhaps all workers should band together in solidarity due to the commonality of their circumstances.

No, they should just quit if they don’t like it. The reason they don’t is that they are getting extra compensation in the form of status and credential they are working towards, or legal immigration status for many foreign students. It is silly to ignore these and focus exclusively on financial compensation. As a thought experiment: imagine that these grad students were offered a deal, where their pay is doubled, the…

They have skin in the game in terms of their education. Walking away will impact references as well.

The nihilist attitude towards human decency at work in the tech industry is so gross. As someone outside looking in, as tech plateaus and consolidates, it will be amusing to observe this flip. All of the former FAANG people will be crying the same way the IBM, DEC, HP hotshots of yesteryear did.

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