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Mycroft – open source voice assistant

mycroft.ai

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Re: Mycroft – open source voice assistant

#81

Post by thomastjeffery »

voakbasda wrote: post #39
rexreed wrote: post #26

The voice assistant space is dying: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/11/amazon-alexa-is-a-co... Some of the comments below are part of the explanation why. It doesn't work as well as people were hoping, and it's a solution in search of a problem with limited application and it seems little monetization. The above article sums it up better from the big tech company's perspective.

A truly open platform stands a chance in the voice assistant space, as it could be adapted into forms that are useful beyond their current limited designs. Such useful forms probably are not as monetizeable as the current incarnations that invasively collect information about you and your family, so I very much doubt the big tech players will ever attempt to build these useful systems directly. Unfortunately, Mycroft…

...but you can fork it. Is the build process really too painful for that to be enough?

Re: Mycroft – open source voice assistant

#82

Post by SEJeff »

nshm wrote: post #23
Brendinooo wrote: post #13

I backed on IndieGoGo (in late 2018 I think), then helped crowdfund on StartEngine. I want so badly to speak well of these guys, and since I invested I want them to succeed, but it's been getting harder to do so. They deserve credit for being reasonably transparent about their processes though. Their blog has been very interesting to follow. They had a ton of issues trying to work out their original design, then the…

There is also a strange story of speech developer leaving them a week ago https://community.rhasspy.org/t/rhasspy-is-joining-nabu-casa...

That's great news for Home Assistant however!

Re: Mycroft – open source voice assistant

#83

Post by ghaff »

Brendinooo wrote: post #33
rexreed wrote: post #26

The voice assistant space is dying: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/11/amazon-alexa-is-a-co... Some of the comments below are part of the explanation why. It doesn't work as well as people were hoping, and it's a solution in search of a problem with limited application and it seems little monetization. The above article sums it up better from the big tech company's perspective.

The "voice assistant space" also includes Siri, Google Assistant, and Cortana, so it's not going anywhere. I'd contend that it's absolutely not a solution in search of a problem; it's much more of an unsolved problem, and a big part of the "why" is - voice recognition/assistance tech still maturing - major players are insisting that the tech supports their walled gardens - price points are still a problem The last tw…

>- price points are still a problem

Really? An Echo Dot is $25 on Amazon right now. Which, if you use it at all, is pretty reasonable. (To be sure, if I were using it for music to any degree, I'd probably get a model with better speakers.)

For music, I have an old phone connected to a stereo receiver. So it has voice control although I mostly pick a playlist or album manually.

Re: Mycroft – open source voice assistant

#84

Post by shagie »

rolenthedeep wrote: post #38
rexreed wrote: post #26

The voice assistant space is dying: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/11/amazon-alexa-is-a-co... Some of the comments below are part of the explanation why. It doesn't work as well as people were hoping, and it's a solution in search of a problem with limited application and it seems little monetization. The above article sums it up better from the big tech company's perspective.

Voice assistants which are trying to force engagement to squeeze money out of you are dying. Most people only use the voice assistants for a few simple tasks, which is perfect for an open source project like mycroft. It is, however, very, very bad for Amazon and Google, because those tasks don't make them money. That's why they're all going so aggressive on "you asked for the time, but by the way here's a 5 minute sp…

> Most people only use the voice assistants for a few simple tasks, which is perfect for an open source project like mycroft.

I'll certainly grant that... but the price point where Mycroft is, is certainly not near what I'd pay for doing those few simple tasks.

Apple is at the upper end of what I'd spend for such a device (the HomePod mini is $99) - and that's because I'm fairly invested into the Apple ecosystem and thus it can make use of the iTunes library, home automation, calendar items, etc...

If I wasn't invested in Apple, then none of the home assistants other than Amazon (because of the price point for the echo) would be particularly interesting.

I've got a echo show - because its a very nice simple clock/weather interface (that's got Alexa behind it) too (I really liked the Ambient 7 day weather clock when it was available). I've got an echo wall clock that is paired with the echo in the kitchen - it makes timers nicely visible (a sibling of mine has an echo wall clock because its an analog dial that doesn't have any sound with it).

The problems with Alexa of suggesting by the way ("Alexa, stop by the way" - give it a try and yes, it is routineable) are tolerable for how much I'm paying for them and the functionality that I use it for.

Re: Mycroft – open source voice assistant

#85

Post by aartav »

Brendinooo wrote: post #13

I backed on IndieGoGo (in late 2018 I think), then helped crowdfund on StartEngine. I want so badly to speak well of these guys, and since I invested I want them to succeed, but it's been getting harder to do so. They deserve credit for being reasonably transparent about their processes though. Their blog has been very interesting to follow. They had a ton of issues trying to work out their original design, then the…

Kudos to them for shipping a product.

I looked into them a few weeks ago because I am tired of the "Did you know.." and "Can I add that to your cart?" from Alexa. When I saw the device I was really disappointed. I can just never see getting one - it doesn't need a screen (cause it should be hidden) and why did they make it look like a 1960s sci-fi movie thing? IMHO it looks terrible.

Re: Mycroft – open source voice assistant

#86

Post by shagie »

smoldesu wrote: post #76
jm4 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the entire space is dying. Amazon is having problems because Alexa has little benefit to them outside of direct monetization. They wanted people to use Alexa to buy things and no one wants to shop like that. So they have these devices and all this infrastructure to run people's kitchen timers, lights and play music. People will buy Alexa devices on Prime Day, use them dozens of times a day for years, an…

This makes no sense to me. Apple's plan works because... their lock-in is better? I can "control most of the lights in my house, stream Apple music and set kitchen timers" with Alexa, Google Assistant, Cortana and even Bixby. What is Apple's actual advantage here? How is Apple making money from this when Amazon does not?

Apples devices are smarter. This makes them cost more for the "same" hardware, but costs less for the computation.

Apple isn't trying to make money with Siri. It's using Siri to make its ecosystem of Apple Music and similar more valuable to its customers.

The limits that Apple puts on what it can do makes that cloud side computation less expensive.

---

Consider that bit - less expensive. Apple doesn't run its own cloud in the way that Google, Amazon, or Microsoft do. So what does Alexa cost? It costs for AWS cloud time. That's the expense that it's running. Those skills that people use run on AWS compute time rather than a phone's local cpu and battery.

A google search "costs" about 1 KJ of energy. Alexa has similar costs somewhere just for energy and other costs for the maintenance of the additional software and content. It costs something to maintain that joke database.

Re: Mycroft – open source voice assistant

#87

Post by aartav »

rexreed wrote: post #26

The voice assistant space is dying: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/11/amazon-alexa-is-a-co... Some of the comments below are part of the explanation why. It doesn't work as well as people were hoping, and it's a solution in search of a problem with limited application and it seems little monetization. The above article sums it up better from the big tech company's perspective.

Its certainly not a solution looking for a problem. Its a great way to deal with a number of minor daily tasks. Checking the time, setting timers, checking the weather/AQI, playing music, checking news headlines, etc.

Theres a lot of things its really not good for and people have tried them all I'm sure. But where it fails the hardest is being able to increase sales volume for Amazon or increase ad revenue for Google - the only path to monetization seems to be to force it in - and THAT is what is dying.

And who the heck wants it in a ring or glasses??

Re: Mycroft – open source voice assistant

#88

Post by jm4 »

smoldesu wrote: post #79
Tagbert wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple makes money from the devices it sells. Siri makes those devices more convenient to use. Amazon is selling the devices at or below cost and hoping that Alexa will make the money (which it doesn’t)

That only tells me which one will exist longer, not that "Apple's plan works". I've genuinely seen zero people deliberately use Siri (on iPhone or Mac) over the past 5 years. Apple is certainly losing money on Siri too.

If you look at Siri in a vacuum, you're almost certainly correct that it isn't a moneymaker. But Siri isn't in a vacuum. It comes with a device with an average cost of like $1000. It may not necessarily be widely used, but the ones who do use it are highly likely to remain in the Apple ecosystem and use other products and services that are highly profitable.

Look at all those Korean novelas and shovelware on Netflix. There are cohorts of subscribers who remain highly loyal because they're into it. Netflix isn't necessarily swinging for the fences with high brow, popular content that competes with the best studios in the world. Instead, they pump out a wide variety of content that keeps the maximum number of people subscribed.

Apple is similar. They promote features - whether it's Siri, health, privacy, family sharing/controls, etc. - that will strongly appeal to some cohort and keep them on the platform. Then, they incrementally hook you into services until you're buying $1000 devices for the whole family and paying $30/mo for the services bundle. And once you're there, they have you because the switching cost involves turning your digital life upside down.

Re: Mycroft – open source voice assistant

#89

Post by jm4 »

theptip wrote: post #78
jm4 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the entire space is dying. Amazon is having problems because Alexa has little benefit to them outside of direct monetization. They wanted people to use Alexa to buy things and no one wants to shop like that. So they have these devices and all this infrastructure to run people's kitchen timers, lights and play music. People will buy Alexa devices on Prime Day, use them dozens of times a day for years, an…

Seems odd right? Just charge more than break-even for Alexa and you have a business?

Not necessarily because the cost increases through increased use by the customer. The idea was to sell hardware at close to cost and then monetize the customer. The likely assumption was that Alexa users would buy more similar to how Prime customers buy more. Ideally, Alexa customers were supposed to use services like "subscribe and save" and then randomly tell Alexa to order more toilet paper or laundry detergent. Amazon wanted all the household stuff on recurring subscriptions. It would have been great. Increased revenue, better ability to bundle shipments together to cut costs, customers who don't even look at prices anymore. Instead, they sell a device for which they incur an operating cost while producing little to zero increased revenue and subscriptions.

Re: Mycroft – open source voice assistant

#90

Post by Brendinooo »

aartav wrote: post #85
Brendinooo wrote: post #13

I backed on IndieGoGo (in late 2018 I think), then helped crowdfund on StartEngine. I want so badly to speak well of these guys, and since I invested I want them to succeed, but it's been getting harder to do so. They deserve credit for being reasonably transparent about their processes though. Their blog has been very interesting to follow. They had a ton of issues trying to work out their original design, then the…

Kudos to them for shipping a product. I looked into them a few weeks ago because I am tired of the "Did you know.." and "Can I add that to your cart?" from Alexa. When I saw the device I was really disappointed. I can just never see getting one - it doesn't need a screen (cause it should be hidden) and why did they make it look like a 1960s sci-fi movie thing? IMHO it looks terrible.

The original design was great, but it just didn't work. They had too many issues trying to source hardware and decided to pivot to more off-the-shelf components.

That's the short version; here are some highlighted blog posts that document the trials and tribulations:

https://mycroft.ai/blog/mark-ii-update-delivery-timeline-and...

https://mycroft.ai/blog/mark-ii-update-january-2019-current-...

https://mycroft.ai/blog/mark-ii-architecture-change/

https://mycroft.ai/blog/mark-ii-update-revised-architecture/

https://mycroft.ai/blog/real-companies-ship-product/ (here's the pivot to Raspberry Pi)

https://mycroft.ai/blog/mark-ii-update-january/

https://mycroft.ai/blog/mycroft-mark-ii-july-2020/ (here's where they decide that the thing has to be a box instead of a cylinder)

https://mycroft.ai/blog/mark-ii-update-october-2020/

https://mycroft.ai/blog/redesigning-the-mark-ii-part-1/ (here's the final design)

For what it's worth I'm intrigued by a screen. Theoretically it shouldn't be needed but if they want to have a reference device that can be used in multiple industries, it's better to have it than to not have it.

But that series of posts is why I'm still cheering for Mycroft despite everything: Clearly this stuff is hard, they've been out there trying hard, taking lumps, fighting off patent trolls, putting in the work. If they don't succeed, I'm not sure who else will pick up the reins and do any better.

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