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AP fires reporter behind retracted ‘Russian missiles’ story

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Re: AP fires reporter behind retracted ‘Russian missiles’ story

#81
post #35

It's amazing how quickly fake news is able to spread through "credible" news sources, all without even the slightest bit of real verification. I don't know if its scary or comforting to consider that if the political establishment wanted WW3, they could have it had it right there. The same intelligence agencies that convinced the world Iraq had WMD could have simply agreed with the story/Zelensky/et al, declare anybo…

> The same intelligence agencies that convinced the world Iraq had WMD could have simply agreed with the story/Zelensky/et al, declare anybody debating it to be a "conspiracy theorist promoting Russian misinformation/propaganda", invoke article 5, and away we go. But... they didn't. The people with the power put on their big boy pants and said "No, I don't think this is right", refused to engage with the outrage mach…

In wartime the cost for reporting false information can be catastrophic. And wartime is also when everybody has a very strong motivation to lie, and even some moral rationalizations for such. This news article put the US in a situation where the US had to say "our media is lying, our military ally is lying, our anonymous senior intelligence source is lying, and our enemy is telling the truth" or start WW3.

The one and only reason they did so is because the cost of this lie would have been too high. If the cost had simply been "Russia will be even more demonized" do you think, even for a second, that they would have "corrected the record"? And beyond this, also consider that the news sources running these stories had to realize the potentially massive implications of this. Yet they seemingly themselves did effectively 0 fact checking before running with it.

No, the system is most assuredly not working. The only system that is working is the desire to avoid Mutually Assured Destruction.

Re: AP fires reporter behind retracted ‘Russian missiles’ story

#82
post #66
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How, exactly?

Jesus Christ. Every US president since the end of the cold war has authorized eastward expansion of NATO, an alliance whose enemy no longer exists. The current president was brokering arms deals with Ukraine. The previous president was delivering on those deals. After the 2014 coup, a major Ukraine energy company, which was cozy with Putin, hired the Vice President’s son in order to cozy up with the new America-frien…

> NATO, an alliance whose enemy no longer exists.

The North Atlantic Treaty was signed in an effort prevent war in Europe.

...and here we are today with war in Europe.

NATO is more relevant now than it ever has been since it was first established, and I think their current list of applicants is a clear testament to that.

Re: AP fires reporter behind retracted ‘Russian missiles’ story

#83
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As OP said, no one with a clue believed it. Hence the demonstrations. Big demonstrations. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_Wa... > According to the French academic Dominique Reynié, between January 3 and April 12, 2003, 36 million people across the globe took part in almost 3,000 protests against the Iraq war. > In the United States, even though pro-war demonstrators have been quoted as refer…

Whether intentionally or not, you're giving results of polls years after the invasion. Wars look very different after the fact. In the midst of the war you're surrounded by endless lies, misrepresentations, and propaganda. And most people simply follow along. After all, who wants to be called a Saddam shill? Wiki has a series of poll results on public opinion of Iraq during after the war. [1] In May 2003, 79% of Amer…

Well, that's Central North Americans for you - still reeling after the 9-11 attacks and looking hard for revenge, however unjustified, and thus easily manipulated by politicians and the press.

In the UK and AU, the two principal partners of the "coalition of the willing", few in the public felt the situation justified and the bulk of those with exposure to global policy, military intell, travel abroad etc. definitely felt it was a bogus war.

Tony Blair was all too aware the supporting intelligence was thin and inadequate at the time - which came out in followup Royal Commissions(?) (they had a big UK inquiry into the matter), and John Howard (AU) was happy to play along despite a lack of backing from ASIO et al on the intel as it was a treaty obligation for AU and not pushing back gave leverage for other US-AU deals.

Altogether it was much less a coalition of the willing than it was a tagging along of the bribed.

Re: AP fires reporter behind retracted ‘Russian missiles’ story

#84
post #78
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every US president since the end of the cold war has authorized eastward expansion of NATO, an alliance whose enemy no longer exists. If those countries wish to join NATO why do they need to ask permission to Russia? This argument really doesn't make sense unless you take away sovereignty of states from the equation, some countries decided they wanted to join NATO, should they be blocked to join a defensive militar…

I have far more contempt for the USA running proxy wars and meddling in border and ethnic disputes halfway across the world than I do for the principals involved in those border disputes. When ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine decided they didn’t want to be a part of Ukraine anymore, Ukraine shelled them. There aren’t any good guys over there. But there didnt need to be a war, and NATO didnt need to instigate it.

> When ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine decided they didn’t want to be a part of Ukraine anymore, Ukraine shelled them.

Oversimplification. Ukrainian constitution says that all referenda needs to go through a vote by all people, not only the ones concerning a region. It was unlawful under Ukrainian law. On top of that there were all the little green men coming from Russia to "help" those ethnic Russians, also there are recordings of Barkashov openly stating how the votes for the referendum in Donbass should look like [1]:

> The recording was of a phone call that the security service said took place between a pro-Russian political operative named Aleksandr Barkashov, who was identified as being in Moscow, and Dmytro Boitsov, a leader of rebels in Donetsk.

> The authenticity of the recording could not be independently verified.

> In the conversation, riddled with expletives, Mr. Boitsov suggests canceling the referendum and Mr. Barkashov insists that it must go forward, but says that it is ridiculous to consider holding a real vote.

> “Are you going to walk around and collect papers?” he asks incredulously, his words punctuated by curses. “Are you insane?”

> Mr. Barkashov adds: “Let’s say that 89 percent voted for the Donetsk Republic and that’s it.”

On this point:

> But there didnt need to be a war, and NATO didnt need to instigate it.

You keep saying NATO instigated it, again, how exactly did NATO instigate it? Ukraine wasn't posed to join NATO in 2014, Ukraine had a peace agreement with Russia since the denuclearisation, a treaty that wasn't respected even after Ukraine stating it wasn't planning on joining NATO. A Russian puppet was deposed from Ukraine's leadership, the people seem to be pretty happy with his replacement since then, and are able to vote for whomever they want.

If Ukraine wanted to join NATO, how is that instigation by NATO? I seriously don't understand this repetition of Mearsheimer's realpolitik take on it, yeah, Russia doesn't like it but Russia's neighbours have pretty clear reasons and motives to want to join a defensive alliance to avoid exactly what happened to Chechnya, Georgia and Ukraine. Russia's will to have lebensraum doesn't give then any validity or justification to invade a neighbour country, you are just catering to the whims of a Russian government that's been pretty clear about its objectives towards its neighbours, why do you keep trying to justify their actions?

Illegal referenda, annexation of territories (specifically productive ones with industries and natural resources) and so on are never going to be justified by the ghost of an ever-encroaching NATO. Russia just needed to stop being a fucking asshole to its neighbours, why can't they do that? Because it's an imperialist shell of a country trying to survive by sheer brute force over its vast expanse of land, something that would never be held together if the people had any say over their future, there's always an iron fist hammering down and subjugating all of its regions.

It's absurd and shameless to actually try to defend this, even worse by simply parroting Russia propaganda. You aren't smarter because you found and chose a contrarian position to be the hill you die on... Quite the opposite.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/09/world/europe/ukraine.html

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/16/ukraine-russia...

Re: AP fires reporter behind retracted ‘Russian missiles’ story

#85

When Ukraine hits Poland (even by mistake), people take step back and blame Russia, because Ukraine wouldn't have had to use an anti-missile system if there was no Russian missile in the first place. Fair enough. Now, why don't people use the same analogy for Russia starting that war? Let's take a step back and ask a basic question - who escalated this all? Who benefits from this war? Who pours money there? Why is no…

It really seems like you are part of Russian propaganda. In another comment you say that you pay taxes in the US.

> Now, why don't people use the same analogy for Russia starting that war? Let's take a step back and ask a basic question - who escalated this all? Who benefits from this war? Who pours money there? Why is nobody asking these questions?

You clearly want to make a point here, so why don’t you answer these questions yourself. Who, in your opinion, escalated the war? The way you formulate your questions, it seems like you are spreading conspiracy theories. So please enlighten us with your brilliant insights into a war that kills thousands of innocent people and kids, destroys so many lives, just because a dictator wants to boost his ego. Territorial war is unnecessary and useless. So prove that you are not a Russian troll, and explain what you want message you want to convey with your stupid questions.

Re: AP fires reporter behind retracted ‘Russian missiles’ story

#86
post #75
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The previous president was impeached for taking aid from ukraine lest they investigate invented allegations of corruption. That putin warned of something is meaningless. Are we expected to roll over whenever a foreign country makes a threat? Most of these threats are empty; even when they aren't, some things they have no right to threaten us about. A country arming itself to protect from a (demonstrably) belligerent…

Yes. Biden also threatened to withhold arms from Ukraine to PREVENT them from investigating corruption. And I suppose if the political establishment wants to fund a proxy war against a nuclear power, they would happily cross the red line.

Nope, false, you are literally spreading falsehoods and Russian propaganda, not sure if on purpose or just by sheer ignorance [1]:

> Joe Biden leveraged aid to remove top prosecutor as part anti-corruption efforts

> It's true that Joe Biden leveraged $1 billion in aid to persuade Ukraine to oust its top prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, in March 2016. But it wasn't because Shokin was investigating Burisma. It was because Shokin wasn't pursuing corruption among the country's politicians.

[1] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/21/fact...

Re: AP fires reporter behind retracted ‘Russian missiles’ story

#87

subsequent reporting showed that the missiles were Russian-made and most likely fired by Ukraine in defense against a Russian attack They were fired by Ukraine towards Poland in defense?

Could have been chasing missiles, though this is improbable given all reports on the S300's have concluded 100% effectiveness. Another potential could be someone in Ukraine being overzealous and trying to trigger a false-flag to force NATO into the action. Ukraine's president has been making continuous efforts to pull NATO into their war and may be getting desperate especially given they are going into deep winter and both sides will have to make significant strategic changes. It would not be the first time a major war started from a false flag. Thankfully either way cooler heads prevailed this time.

Re: AP fires reporter behind retracted ‘Russian missiles’ story

#88
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, smarty. Why was there a conflict in Georgia? What were the events that led to it? > Russia decided to escalate that and annex Crimea in 2014 Putin CLEARLY said that he will annex Crimea if X. What is that X?

If you want to expand on your points, please be clear and expand on them. Asking me to answer rhetorical questions as some kind of bizarre argumentation mechanism is tiresome and clearly against the kind of discussions I expect to be fostered on Hacker News. Either do your own work and expand your argumentation so myself and others can properly reply or stop with this bullshit, it's boring to have to interact with th…

I intentionally asked you these questions so that you could answer the main question by yourself.

Russia has always been reluctant to NATO–the expansion was one of the main topics post-USSR crash.

Munich, 2007-Putin gives a massive speech on NATO. In the speech Putin blames the US on the expansion and clearly states that NATO is not welcomed next to the borders of Russia. He asks the west an important question: "since the USSR no longer exists, who is the enemy? If there is no enemy, then the NATO should be either dissolved or repurposed." Early next year, despite his comments and concerns the US welcomes Ukraine and Georgia to join NATO. What's the reaction of Putin? The US does not want to partnership and belittles his concerns. That year Putin said: "Ok, if they want Ukraine, they won't get Crimea". That was 2008. The decision to annex Crimea was a _reaction_ to the NATO's expansion.

I can keep going and going, but at the end of the day the core problem is NATO. Later, the director of FBI said that welcoming Ukraine and Georgia to NATO was the biggest mistake the US has made within the past several decades. That comment was made before the war started.

This is a proxy war started by the US. I won't be surprised if Ukraine/FTX drama is real. There is a huge chance it's all real, because Biden kept telling us that there were no deals between his son and Ukraine. Eventually, emails between Biden's son and Ukrainian oligarchs were cryptographically verified (DKIM records) and confirmed to be real. So Biden was _clearly_ lying. So, I'm sure there are more lies and FTX could be one of them.

One important note to add.

In January 2022, Putin asked the US to confirm if the expansion continues, because otherwise he'll invade Ukraine. The response of the US: "Yes". That is why everyone knew about the war-Biden, Putin, Zelenskyy. Everyone except the citizens of Ukraine. According to Ukrainian government and their public announcement - they knew about the war, but had to make a tough decision to keep it all in secret.

Re: AP fires reporter behind retracted ‘Russian missiles’ story

#89
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a Russian shill. I pay my taxes in the US, and, apparently, my actions sponsor the war.

So you are Ukrainian, working and living in the US and supporting Russia? Very weird background story, basically unbelievable to be very honest...

I do not support Russia. But I do understand why Russia is doing what they are doing. There is a logical chain of events that led to the conflict. I do strongly support the idea that the US is the core issue here. Unfortunately, the US is not a free speech country. I'm not allowed to share "incorrect" opinion, which is why I use a throwaway account. I have more than 15 YoE and work at Google–pay a shit ton of taxes due to a sky-high FAANG compensations. The US is the sole coordinator of this war and my taxes go towards sponsoring the war. That is why I'm angry.

Re: AP fires reporter behind retracted ‘Russian missiles’ story

#90
post #86
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Biden also threatened to withhold arms from Ukraine to PREVENT them from investigating corruption. And I suppose if the political establishment wants to fund a proxy war against a nuclear power, they would happily cross the red line.

Nope, false, you are literally spreading falsehoods and Russian propaganda, not sure if on purpose or just by sheer ignorance [1]: > Joe Biden leveraged aid to remove top prosecutor as part anti-corruption efforts > It's true that Joe Biden leveraged $1 billion in aid to persuade Ukraine to oust its top prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, in March 2016. But it wasn't because Shokin was investigating Burisma. It was because Sh…

Best case scenario: I'm right. https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/463307-solomon-these-on...

Worst case scenario: Biden did exactly what Trump did.

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