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Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

forum.effectivealtruism.org

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Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#81

Post by 7e »

woodruffw wrote: post #61
JonahSussman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a bit behind on the times, but I'm failing to see how the philosophy of effective altruism and cryptocurrency are related. Do you know how the two got intertwined?

My (outsider's) understanding is that the "longtermist" sub-school of EA has grown over the years, and has developed increasingly convoluted and speculative rationales for behavior that would otherwise be considered unethical. The example I'm most familiar with is calculating utils in terms of the expected total human population of the galaxy, were we to achieve interstellar travel: it's not inconceivable that orders…

This is called “the end justifies the means” and EA did not invent it, unfortunately.

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#82

Post by williamsmj »

woodruffw wrote: post #36

This is maybe tangential of me to say, but since this post is coming from an EA forum: I think the cozy relationship between EA and FTX has done immense damage to the public image and standing of the EA movement. I've never been an EA person (much less a utilitarian) but I can appreciate the meat and potatoes of applied ethics, especially when those ethics are applied consistently . The infusion of cryptocurrency fun…

Agreed. This was not a good look for the movement https://twitter.com/kateconger/status/1590478599844339712.

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#83

Post by javajosh »

woodruffw wrote: post #61
JonahSussman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a bit behind on the times, but I'm failing to see how the philosophy of effective altruism and cryptocurrency are related. Do you know how the two got intertwined?

My (outsider's) understanding is that the "longtermist" sub-school of EA has grown over the years, and has developed increasingly convoluted and speculative rationales for behavior that would otherwise be considered unethical. The example I'm most familiar with is calculating utils in terms of the expected total human population of the galaxy, were we to achieve interstellar travel: it's not inconceivable that orders…

Galactic utility is ridiculous. But so is the other extreme, to act only on short-term utility. The asymmetry is that most humans don't need any encouragement to think short-term, but they do need some impetus to think long-term. But it takes wisdom to balance the two concerns. And yes it is a huge downside to any strategy that delays gratification that it can be "hacked" for evil, which is a problem more general than EA or "longetermism".

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#84

Post by dav43 »

adam_arthur wrote: post #21
ilamont wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: how long can it last at these levels. Where’s the support for this asset?

Well, it has no intrinsic value, so it's all psychological on the basis of what numbers sound low or high. Sounds like my kind of asset

Ditto. Just because people call it "an asset" doesn't make it one. It's not an asset. It's no more than a Ponzi scheme, just a complicated one at that.

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#85

Post by djbusby »

denlekke wrote: post #73
sanxiyn wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CZ says the primary lesson is "never use a token you created as collateral", and Binance has never used BNB for collateral, and (by implication) FTX did use FTT for collateral. https://twitter.com/cz_binance/status/1590103159506341888 As far as I can tell, this seems to be the correct analysis. The technical term for why you should avoid this is "wrong way risk".

Devils advocate: how do we know binance hasn’t used BNB for collateral other than a tweet (which isn’t proof at all)

Aren't they publishing their books, or audits? IIRC them and CoinBase has/have/had audits to show 1:1.

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#86

Post by woodruffw »

shuckles wrote: post #72
woodruffw wrote: post #36

This is maybe tangential of me to say, but since this post is coming from an EA forum: I think the cozy relationship between EA and FTX has done immense damage to the public image and standing of the EA movement. I've never been an EA person (much less a utilitarian) but I can appreciate the meat and potatoes of applied ethics, especially when those ethics are applied consistently . The infusion of cryptocurrency fun…

This is an incorrect understanding of history. Eliezer Yudkowsky more or less created the rationalist movement, out of which EA emerged, as a way of funding AI safety research. MIRI is older than EA.

My understanding is that EA mostly came from Peter Singer's ethics. The "rationalist" movement adopted a lot of the language and metaethical principles espoused by Singer, but Singer has not (to my knowledge) indicated particular interest in AI. The books I've read by him mostly focus on animal welfare and human welfare in developing nations (cf. "doing the most good").

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#87

Post by ETH_start »

woodruffw wrote: post #61
JonahSussman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a bit behind on the times, but I'm failing to see how the philosophy of effective altruism and cryptocurrency are related. Do you know how the two got intertwined?

My (outsider's) understanding is that the "longtermist" sub-school of EA has grown over the years, and has developed increasingly convoluted and speculative rationales for behavior that would otherwise be considered unethical. The example I'm most familiar with is calculating utils in terms of the expected total human population of the galaxy, were we to achieve interstellar travel: it's not inconceivable that orders…

>>If that sounds ridiculous, it's because it is.

Based on how you described it, I don't see what's ridiculous about it.

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#88

Post by djbusby »

adam_arthur wrote: post #25
grensley wrote: post #14

The good times made crazy people look smart and the bad times are making crazy people look like idiots.

Fortunately for investors in public companies, you can mostly sort out the crazy people ahead of time By inspecting the growth mechanism of the company. Amount of leverage, yield on investments relative to risks, assumptions about future growth, management commentary etc. Unfortunately for investors in FTX, they had no visibility or regulations/protections against their deposits being stolen

You all about the fundamentals. <3

Re: Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed

#90

Post by jmathai »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #37
arkis22 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been waiting for this for years.

You’ve been waiting years for people to suffer? Lookup “ schadenfreude”.

Crypto is a cesspool for scammers and a lot of regular people have lost lots of money.

This is coming from someone who genuinely hopes there will be real benefits coming from crypto.

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