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Indian Air Force inducts natively developed light combat helicopter ‘Prachanda’

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Re: Indian Air Force inducts natively developed light combat helicopter ‘Prachanda’

#81

Post by patentatt »

b3orn wrote: post #43
ok_dad wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try fitting an squad into an attack helicopter, though.

The Mil Mi-24 would like to have a word with you.

Cool helicopter! It brought me down a Wikipedia rabbit hole and it looks like there's an even bigger one: the Mi-26. "In early 2002, a civilian Mi-26 was leased to recover two U.S. Army MH-47E Chinook helicopters from a mountain in Afghanistan." [1]

And here I thought the chinook was big, this thing is the tow truck you call when you get your chinook stuck in the mud.

[1] wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-26

Re: Indian Air Force inducts natively developed light combat helicopter ‘Prachanda’

#82

Post by EliRivers »

sandworm101 wrote: post #74
Existenceblinks wrote: post #50

As a thai whose nation adopted lots of Pali/Sanskrit words, I have to look up the word origin https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/pracanda because I suddenly understand the meaning of "Prachan", in thai it means "confront". Indian naming always gives sci-fi kind of vibe.

>> Indian naming always gives sci-fi kind of vibe. In an ironic twist of linguistic history, most US combat helicopters were given American "indian" names (Apache, Comanche, Black Hawk etc). I like such conventions. I wish that more nations adopted and stuck to them when introducing new equipment.

Apropos of nothing much but just on the general theme, when I worked for a few defence companies in Europe, it was common to rename equipment or systems for the Australian market. We'd come up with some way to justify the renaming; often there was some small change or configuration alteration we could point to. We had to rename feminine sounding names or acronyms to something that sounded suitably roughty-toughty for the Australian market.

I genuinely never knew how necessary that was; if it was just something we'd ended up doing based on rumour and speculation, or if re-acronyming something from AMELIE to TOUGHGUY really did make it more likely to get the sale in Australia.

Re: Indian Air Force inducts natively developed light combat helicopter ‘Prachanda’

#83

Post by rippercushions »

chrisseaton wrote: post #25
bee_rider wrote: post #23

Where do attack helicopters fit into modern war, out of curiosity? From my very uninformed point of view -- seems like in a world where man-portable weapons are getting more and more capable, being in a relatively (compared to jets) slowly moving, lightly (?) armored flying vehicle would be pretty terrifying.

Attack helicopters are designed for anti-tank, and some anti-infantry and escort. Yes they’re vulnerable. You’re trading off that risk with being able to being able to move extremely quickly and long distance compared to the tanks they’re fighting. If you want to be very safe you can sit static encased in a metre thick steel shell, but you won’t achieve anything.

In an army, there is a perennial unsolved debate between the tank and the anti-tank corps. The tank guys think you'd be crazy to be on a battlefield if you're not protected by a solid meter of steel and capable of pulverizing anything you point your turret at, while the anti-tank guys think you're crazy if you're sitting trapped in the highly visible steel cage everybody is shooting at.

Re: Indian Air Force inducts natively developed light combat helicopter ‘Prachanda’

#84

Post by hash872 »

mrphoebs wrote: post #63
twixfel wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But even that perspective that you ascribe to India is reductive. It seems in your view, India are the only ones who understand complexity, the West are just arrogant morons. In reality, everyone's equally just looking out for themselves. In the West we don't care about Kashmir, in India people don't care about Ukraine. It's the same, until one day India will discover that Russia is useless against China and the US a…

I haven't ascribed an independent perspective to india exclusively, merely pointed out india has an independent perspective. And I did not say west are arrogant morons I said "Some in the west". I agree with you and as does anybody with even a passing familiarity with international diplomacy, foreign policy by its very nature is about engaging with other countries to further a nation's self interests. The problem is…

Hasn't China repeatedly invaded parts of India's mountain regions though, and killed Indian troops? My understanding is that even though tensions have cooled a bit recently, Chinese troops have still not pulled back. Generally invasions stoke a lot of nationalism, so it's hard for me to understand how India wouldn't see China as a 'bugbear' when China is literally invading it. I'd be curious to learn more about Indian public opinion on China

Re: Indian Air Force inducts natively developed light combat helicopter ‘Prachanda’

#85

Post by closewith »

simonh wrote: post #30
bee_rider wrote: post #23

Where do attack helicopters fit into modern war, out of curiosity? From my very uninformed point of view -- seems like in a world where man-portable weapons are getting more and more capable, being in a relatively (compared to jets) slowly moving, lightly (?) armored flying vehicle would be pretty terrifying.

I think we’re in a transition period where it looks like drones will probably replace scout and attack helicopters. In the mean time a chopper like this probably still has a role, but I think they’re on the wrong side of history with this. For now though, while western militaries can afford to hand out LAWS and MANPADS to their troops like sweets, India’s main rivals probably can’t. Yes an individual MANPAD is much c…

> The main saving grace of a system like this is that the munitions, unguided rockets and cannon rounds, are pretty cheap. In contrast while drones are much cheaper than the chopper, they’re very expensive as munitions.

Based on the current war in Ukraine, this isn't true at all.

Even relatively expensive loitering munitions (compare to mortars dropped from DJI drones) like the Switchblade 600 cost in the range of $10,000-20,000 per deployment, significantly cheaper than the flight costs for a rotary light attack sortie and much cheaper than even the "low-cost" missile option for the Prachand (the Thales FZ275 LGR - the high-cost option is the MBDA Mistral, which costs $300,000 per deployment).

There is no scenario in which a manned rotary craft competes with a drone on cost.

Re: Indian Air Force inducts natively developed light combat helicopter ‘Prachanda’

#86

Post by mrphoebs »

hash872 wrote: post #84
mrphoebs wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't ascribed an independent perspective to india exclusively, merely pointed out india has an independent perspective. And I did not say west are arrogant morons I said "Some in the west". I agree with you and as does anybody with even a passing familiarity with international diplomacy, foreign policy by its very nature is about engaging with other countries to further a nation's self interests. The problem is…

Hasn't China repeatedly invaded parts of India's mountain regions though, and killed Indian troops? My understanding is that even though tensions have cooled a bit recently, Chinese troops have still not pulled back. Generally invasions stoke a lot of nationalism, so it's hard for me to understand how India wouldn't see China as a 'bugbear' when China is literally invading it. I'd be curious to learn more about India…

There is no love lost between india and china due to events in the recent past.

The Indian people and government are furious with china's flouting of the agreed upon status quo at the border and it comes with all the nationalistic fervour that fury entails. It has also eroded india's trust in china at a diplomatic and military level.

India has been trying to counter and contain china's influence in the region with limited success and all of India's politcal, diplomatic and military institutions see china as our biggest threat.

The nuance in the "bugbear" thing is that this accelerated re-orientation against china is not coming from a place of fear, it's coming from a place of "Come at me bro".

While on paper it might seem like India is militarily outmatched by china the geopolitical and tactical reality is that china is incapable of mounting a meaningfully successful attack against India without itself suffering politically, militarily, economically and diplomatically.

Re: Indian Air Force inducts natively developed light combat helicopter ‘Prachanda’

#87

Post by [deleted] »

EliRivers wrote: post #82
sandworm101 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Indian naming always gives sci-fi kind of vibe. In an ironic twist of linguistic history, most US combat helicopters were given American "indian" names (Apache, Comanche, Black Hawk etc). I like such conventions. I wish that more nations adopted and stuck to them when introducing new equipment.

Apropos of nothing much but just on the general theme, when I worked for a few defence companies in Europe, it was common to rename equipment or systems for the Australian market. We'd come up with some way to justify the renaming; often there was some small change or configuration alteration we could point to. We had to rename feminine sounding names or acronyms to something that sounded suitably roughty-toughty for…

[deleted]

Re: Indian Air Force inducts natively developed light combat helicopter ‘Prachanda’

#88

Post by [deleted] »

closewith wrote: post #85
simonh wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we’re in a transition period where it looks like drones will probably replace scout and attack helicopters. In the mean time a chopper like this probably still has a role, but I think they’re on the wrong side of history with this. For now though, while western militaries can afford to hand out LAWS and MANPADS to their troops like sweets, India’s main rivals probably can’t. Yes an individual MANPAD is much c…

> The main saving grace of a system like this is that the munitions, unguided rockets and cannon rounds, are pretty cheap. In contrast while drones are much cheaper than the chopper, they’re very expensive as munitions. Based on the current war in Ukraine, this isn't true at all. Even relatively expensive loitering munitions (compare to mortars dropped from DJI drones) like the Switchblade 600 cost in the range of $1…

[deleted]

Re: Indian Air Force inducts natively developed light combat helicopter ‘Prachanda’

#89

Post by sandworm101 »

pjc50 wrote: post #52
simonh wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we’re in a transition period where it looks like drones will probably replace scout and attack helicopters. In the mean time a chopper like this probably still has a role, but I think they’re on the wrong side of history with this. For now though, while western militaries can afford to hand out LAWS and MANPADS to their troops like sweets, India’s main rivals probably can’t. Yes an individual MANPAD is much c…

The runtime cost of helicopters is pretty terrible, though. You can easily exceed the cost of several expendable "switchblade" type drones simply taking off and flying to the target.

Apples and oranges. A switchblade is only ever useful against a target. It doesn't have the firepower to suppress enemy movement, to cover an allied advance, or decimate an area of ground when you cannot pinpoint a target's exact position. A helicopter with some FFARs and a machine gun can.

If the helicopter can do something that no drone can, then it does compete regardless of the extra cost/complexity/manpower needed to deploy it.

Re: Indian Air Force inducts natively developed light combat helicopter ‘Prachanda’

#90

Post by baxtr »

pxmpxm wrote: post #72
KingOfCoders wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look up Phoenix program for wild things. Not to take any Iraqi victims lightly, but Vietnam had much more atrocities.

I think you're collectively missing my point; the two parents in this thread are phenomenal example of https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/355/607/670 Related, but it's pretty eye opening to see left-leaning people being marketed and fully sold a war. I can only surmise this latest rehash of "support of troops" is about the best chance/narrative that team donkey has for the upcoming elections. Cognitive…

Nice graphic. I have been thinking about this a bit.

I think a good way to say on which side you are is to ask: Could I protest here freely?

Most democratic systems will allow protests, no matter what the official/government position on the topic is.

Protesting and speaking your mind will get you in serious trouble elsewhere.

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