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Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

karlsutt.com

81–90 of 210 posts

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#81
I am currently in the middle of setting up AWS and that decision graph made me chuckle because it resonates quite deeply.

I need to do GPU inference but I don't want to run the machine 24x7. I may use it for about 4 hours per day at best. Lambda doesn't offer GPUs and neither does ECS+Fargate.

It seems like I could setup an endpoint using Sagemaker and then destroy it when no longer needed, and automate all of this but it feels quite messy.

The other route is perhaps I can launch an instance every day with ECS and then get rid of it.

All these routes seem quite inefficient. There seems to be something called Elastic inference where I can provision the right amount of GPU resources - but it seems like I'll need a spare EC2 instance to do that if I'm not mistaken, which is not ideal either.

I guess all this stems from the fact that there is no straightforward virtualization for GPU workloads and so they have to provision them 1:1 which currently they are not equipped to do.

Has anyone run into a similar problem and found a more elegant solution? All of the above are very messy. Is there some obvious choice I am missing?

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#82

I work for AWS and I get paid decent money to work with companies and help them become “cloud native”. My specialty is “application modernization” and I avoid “lift and shift” projects like the plague. Even though I realize that doing lift and shifts first is the right answer sometimes. I think I can confidently state that I know AWS pretty well. That being said, in my personal life if someone ever came to me and sai…

Hey, coincidentally I am about to start a role in "Application Modernization" as Cloud Solution Architect at MSFT (though I only have experience with AWS). Do you mind if I ask u some further questions via the email in your profile?

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#83

> If you're an indie hacker, a boostrapper, a startup, an agency or a consultancy, or just a small team building a product, chances are you are not going to need the cost and complexity that comes with modern cloud platforms. Hard disagree. - On cost: there is almost nothing better for the indie hacker, bootstrapper, or startup than cloud services. I run apps on all three platforms (Google, AWS, and Azure) and my mon…

Agree, we bootstrapped a business from cents a month to $4 or $5 now, there's no maintenance, and I know if we get mentioned on Oprah - we'll be able to cope with a blip thousands of signups a second. I know how I'd run the system on our own hardware but can put off that decision to when (or if) we need it.

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#84

This article is written in kind of a controversial way but it seems like the throughline of the argument is something like "use heroku until you have 100k users". This seems very reasonable to me. I thought it was going to be a pitch for on prem, which is also fine for certain scales. I think generally the scaling steps from startup to megacorp go: Heroku/Dokku > Public Cloud >Dedicated servers in someone else's DC >…

> "use heroku until you have 100k users"

Thing is that for most/many startups 100k users is not a lot. Rejiggling your basic infra just as your growth is starting to accelerate is a non-trivial task, a risk, and something that doesn't fundamentally move the needle.

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#85

So what, the suggestion is to go with Heroku instead? I think fargate + docker is super easy to setup, run and maintain. Maybe Heroku makes it a little bit easier, but that's about it. Once you leave the Heroku ecosystem you'll have lost all the time you saved. I'm not convinced.

I spent a few evenings going the ECS route and the complexity and cost of just a single api available to the internet and a database kept ballooning to way more than what I wanted to pay for and deal with.

Fargate, image repo, NAT gateway, I don't even remember all the nonsense at this point but it was ridiculous.

I took a look at a few alternatives and DigitalOcean's App service was night and day easier, faster, and cheaper to deal with.

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#86
As an solopreneur running a SaaS and various apps/addons on other SaaSes on AWS for 7 years now, I'm inclined to agree.

In fact, I've already migrated a fair chunk of my workload off AWS Lambda onto constantly running fly.io VMs.

It's significantly cheaper than serverless (when you're past the free tier), the servers just restart if they crash (as opposed to running up a six figure AWS bill), and it's less complicated operationally (it's just a VM, less need to pipe messages with SQS, figure out IAM, etc)

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#87
post #45

This article is written in kind of a controversial way but it seems like the throughline of the argument is something like "use heroku until you have 100k users". This seems very reasonable to me. I thought it was going to be a pitch for on prem, which is also fine for certain scales. I think generally the scaling steps from startup to megacorp go: Heroku/Dokku > Public Cloud >Dedicated servers in someone else's DC >…

I really agree with you, what's weird though is how many mega-corps are going away from Custom Hardware in Custom Built DC towards Cloud. There's also something to be said for buying a VPS or a Colo machine, making sure it's backed up and dealing with the 9's that you get from that machine on it's own. I am routinely surprised by how far a single node machine will get you.

> what's weird though is how many mega-corps are going away from Custom Hardware in Custom Built DC towards Cloud.

Why is it surprising? Building and maintaining custom data centers is a big, slow business initiative. It takes months to years of forecasting to get the data center buildout to match the business needs, as opposed to the extreme flexibility of using a cloud provider.

> There's also something to be said for buying a VPS or a Colo machine, making sure it's backed up and dealing with the 9's that you get from that machine on it's own. I am routinely surprised by how far a single node machine will get you.

For personal projects this is exactly what I do. It’s great until something goes wrong with that one machine or VPS.

But it’s not really a good option for any business that needs consistent operations and uptime. Years ago I worked at a company that tried to self-host some of their collaboration tools on a VPS to save money over the cloud-hosted versions. When the server went down it stalled productivity for a day while the team restored a backup, with another week of confusion as we tried to find all of the things that were lost between the last backup and when the server went down.

When someone did the rough estimations on how much it cost to pay everyone’s salaries for that day of lost productivity, the number was far higher than the trivial cost savings we got from self-hosting. We also had a constant background burden on someone internally to maintain and monitor the server, plus the burden of them being on call. Often, moving to cloud anything can be a huge load off the company’s back.

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The AWS free tier lets you do a lot, and if you use it well, it lets you avoid up to about $50/month of digitalocean bills. If you're never planning on scaling past a hobby project, the free tier is a great place to stay. If your hobby project "goes viral," though, it might cost you a few thousand dollars, but hopefully that helps you get a lot more money to turn your hobby into a business. If you have commercial int…

> it lets you avoid up to about $50/month of digitalocean bills. Wish I'd know about this AWS free tier, because that sounds a lot like my monthly digital ocean bill :')

What are you running that costs $50/month? Several services with decent amounts of traffic?

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#89
post #81

I am currently in the middle of setting up AWS and that decision graph made me chuckle because it resonates quite deeply. I need to do GPU inference but I don't want to run the machine 24x7. I may use it for about 4 hours per day at best. Lambda doesn't offer GPUs and neither does ECS+Fargate. It seems like I could setup an endpoint using Sagemaker and then destroy it when no longer needed, and automate all of this b…

If your GPU inference can run on an Intel integrated GPU, you could rent a dedicated server from OVH for ~$130 a month and use the integrated GPU on that. I don't know about affordable dedicated servers from mature providers with Nvidia GPUs.

Re: Cloud services like AWS or Google Cloud Platform may be the wrong choice

#90
Disclaimer: not a backend or web engineer, I mostly write embedded software, but inevitably need to implement services from time to time (and had a startup at one point)

My response is "yes but what about databases". There are any number of ways of hosting my application - "put it on a VM" is a perfectly reasonable approach, particularly as my preferred platform is Elixir which is pretty monolithic anyway. That's fine for the app, but what about the DB? I think I know just enough to know that hosting Postgres properly (i.e. reliably and performantly with appropriate backups) is not that easy, and I'd like someone else to do it for me.

For my startup I used App Engine (Flexible Environment) and Cloud SQL. That worked well in that I had the "two instances behind a load balancer" that you want for seamless upgrade, and managed SQL without having to delve into all the many Google Cloud services for networking etc. etc. Everything else was just 'more elixir' which is easy to test locally.

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