Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#81

Post by moomin » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:46 AM UTC

drcross wrote: post #55

hansonkd13 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you're head and shoulders above any of your competitors, you're able to get away with things like this. The hubris of Tesla is still believing this to be the case. I personally cancelled my cybertruck order from lack of interest. better competition exists in 2022 that wasn’t the case years ago.

Tesla's are outselling every other manufacturer (ICE or otherwise) in many countries for the last quarter and they are still severely supply constrained; your personal antidotal data point doesn't serve much purpose in the broader context.

One of the weird things about Tesla is that, in general, supply side constraints are widely regarded as a flashing warning light that a firm can’t execute. Yet Tesla is just given an “I’m sure they’ll work it out.”

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#82

Post by BurningFrog » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:54 AM UTC

gwicks56 wrote: post #56

phoe18 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was the Tesla being driven in the FSD mode? or was this a simple human error?

My $20k Mazda won't allow me to rear-end somebody even if cruise control is switched off. Neither will my wife Subaru.

Do people actually try this?

I'm pretty sure my Subaru does the same. But I'm not brave enough to actually try a rear-end.

I've been thinking of getting a big cardboard box to try with, but so far it's only an idea :)

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#83

Post by ralusek » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:57 AM UTC

mlajtos wrote: post #15

olliecornelia wrote: post #4

Wow, how fucking stupid. Does that mean that cars that already have ultrasonic sensors (and radar modules) will stop using that sensor data?

The reason why they decided to remove ultrasonics is that combining contradictory signals from cameras and ultrasonic is not straightforward. What should have the higher precedence? So they ultimately decided that cameras can do what ultrasonics can do, but even better. They won't remove ultrasonics from the delivered cars, but they will probably disable them in coming months.

This sounds like a problem well suited for ML, which is basically the thing most of us expect Tesla to be best at. Just throw sensor data at cases and let the situations in which certain values should get precedence manifest in the weights and biases.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#84

Post by petilon » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:58 AM UTC

STRML wrote: post #22

There are multiple tells that this move, just like the removal of radar, is supply-chain and cost-driven and not actually driven by engineering. If this were a planned move, the software would already be ready to replace it. It is not. Cars without radar still aren't at parity with the car that have it, although they "fixed" this a few weeks back by simply turning off the radar on the older cars. The parking sensors…

> There are multiple tells that this move, just like the removal of radar, is supply-chain and cost-driven and not actually driven by engineering.

Not true. Elon Musk has long maintained that cameras/vision is all that is needed [1]. After all, that's all a human has.

[1] https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/22/anyone-relying-on-lidar-is...

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#85

Post by jjcon » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:04 AM UTC

avidphantasm wrote: post #18

sxates wrote: post #12

Cars delivered today without USS will not have: "Park Assist: alerts you of surrounding objects when the vehicle is traveling This is the most basic feature that almost every car has had for years - but not your $60k Model Y. Why can't they wait to remove sensors until they've achieved feature parity with the vision only system? This seems crazy. I don't really understand the push to do everything through the cameras…

I guess they think their computer vision and AI can catch up to and exceed the visual processing capabilities of vertebrates with their millions of years of evolution. I think they are wrong. Multi-media sensor data fusion is the only sane path for the foreseeable future, in my lay opinion.

>an catch up to and exceed the visual processing capabilities of vertebrates with their millions of years of evolution

I mean tons of technology outperforms humans by a mile... plenty of other computer vision systems already outperform people so not sure why Tesla would be exempt here due to 'evolution'.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#86

Post by kube-system » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:04 AM UTC

biaachmonkie wrote: post #78

dagmx wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However phantom breaking still happens regularly (and perhaps more often) with their vision system. Shadows really mess with it. So I’m not sure that’s very compelling that radar is somehow making things worse for them.

I get phantom forward collision warnings on my car quite often, a 2015 VW Jetta TDI SEL. There are a few places where it triggers ~1/3 of the time while driving on a clean road with no other cars around in either direction. The system doesn't trigger breaking just a warning alarm beep and dash screen warning message, but all these systems are unreliable at this point, even the newer ones have these same false positiv…

It does make sense to err a bit on the side of caution for warnings. With warnings, a false positive is better than a false negative. It’s better to occasionally annoy the driver (within reason) than fail to warn for an accident.

This isn’t the case with braking. You want to have a high degree of confidence in that scenario because you don’t want to cause an accident. It’s better to react later to an impending collision than it is to cause an accident that would have never happened.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#87

Post by jeromegv » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:12 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #82

gwicks56 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My $20k Mazda won't allow me to rear-end somebody even if cruise control is switched off. Neither will my wife Subaru.

Do people actually try this? I'm pretty sure my Subaru does the same. But I'm not brave enough to actually try a rear-end. I've been thinking of getting a big cardboard box to try with, but so far it's only an idea :)

I’m not purposely trying it but I’ve seen my car do it so I know it works.

Civic 2016

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#88

Post by foepys » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:13 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #82

gwicks56 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My $20k Mazda won't allow me to rear-end somebody even if cruise control is switched off. Neither will my wife Subaru.

Do people actually try this? I'm pretty sure my Subaru does the same. But I'm not brave enough to actually try a rear-end. I've been thinking of getting a big cardboard box to try with, but so far it's only an idea :)

Yes, there was a semi-viral video a few weeks back involving a child dummy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mnG_Gbxf_w

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#89

Post by dahfizz » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:13 AM UTC

moomin wrote: post #81

drcross wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's are outselling every other manufacturer (ICE or otherwise) in many countries for the last quarter and they are still severely supply constrained; your personal antidotal data point doesn't serve much purpose in the broader context.

One of the weird things about Tesla is that, in general, supply side constraints are widely regarded as a flashing warning light that a firm can’t execute. Yet Tesla is just given an “I’m sure they’ll work it out.”

Being supply constrained during a period of rapid growth is the opposite of a warning light.

They build new factories and pump out more and more cars each year. People are still scrambling to buy their product.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#90

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:16 AM UTC

petilon wrote: post #84

STRML wrote: post #22

There are multiple tells that this move, just like the removal of radar, is supply-chain and cost-driven and not actually driven by engineering. If this were a planned move, the software would already be ready to replace it. It is not. Cars without radar still aren't at parity with the car that have it, although they "fixed" this a few weeks back by simply turning off the radar on the older cars. The parking sensors…

> There are multiple tells that this move, just like the removal of radar, is supply-chain and cost-driven and not actually driven by engineering. Not true. Elon Musk has long maintained that cameras/vision is all that is needed [1]. After all, that's all a human has. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/22/anyone-relying-on-lidar-is...

[deleted]