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The Ungodly Surveillance of Anti-Porn ‘Shameware’ Apps

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Re: The Ungodly Surveillance of Anti-Porn ‘Shameware’ Apps

#81
post #59
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reprehensible exploitation of sex workers does not make sex work inherently bad. Yes, let's avoid slippery slopes, please make things clear. What defines "bad" or "good" here? How much money porneia makes for those profiteering from it? How much pleasure the consumers get? What the health expert of the day prescribes? All I can gather so far is that you have better reasons to say porneia production isn't bad be…

> What defines "bad" or "good" here? Bad = morally wrong, or "not okay" as you said. Specifically, you seem to be making the claim that all porn, even non-exploitative porn, is morally wrong in principle, the same way murder and rape are morally wrong (although less so.) This is what I'm challenging. > and I keep forgetting about the harm that comes to people who profit from the industry. What harm is that? (In order…

The friends are consensual, and they are simply inviting people to watch. It all sounds so welcoming, natural, wholesome, harmless.

Of course it seems that way. Any person worth their salt in the industry would be ashamed to admit it depended solely on being addictive, and missed out on the opportunities created by also saying it's basically harmless. A really good spin would be to say instead of being harmless, why, it's actually good for you!

The harm of inviting the (paying) world to watch as two people have consensual sex? Four, off top of my head:

1. The special bond from such intimacy is cheapened. Sex is wonderful - it doesn't just feel good, it involves another person that you have an opportunity to relate to in a unique way, and they to you. Properly used it involves dignity, selflessness, and deep relationship. I've heard others say similar things that cheapen it, like "it's just body parts touching each other." What a shame it's reduced to that.

2. The children that naturally come from this are treated as a negative aspect, instead of a blessing. What if a kid accidentally came from one of these videos, would you be able to tell him some day that your friends wanted to have him and it was totally worth it to stop the gravy train to do so once they found out? You, your friends, and I will not be around forever, but hopefully another generation will come after us - don't harm that generation by depriving them the foundation of knowing it is good that they are alive and the previous generation welcomed them.

3. What happens in the bedroom affects what happens in the house, and what happens in the house affects the culture. Stuff is connected - give me a culture that has honor in the bedrooms, because I know how well things will be going in the public sphere.

4. Lastly, there is a point that is crucial for Christians, but I think even non-Christians should be aware of it - it is harmful because instead of furthering the worship of God, it furthers a falsehood where the individual is worshiped instead. Let me speak of myself: just imagine what I would do if there were no God, and I were God for a day. It would not be a fun world for long, even for me. Can we really treat such thoughts as harmless, just inside our hearts and heads, having no bearing on each other and the world?

Re: The Ungodly Surveillance of Anti-Porn ‘Shameware’ Apps

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All appeals to an ultimate authority are circular by nature. Its the philosophical equivalent of bedrock. That being said, you can understand Christianity and the Christian philosophy/worldview perfectly well without faith. You need faith in the capacity and work of the true and living God, the Lord Jesus, the Messiah in order to be saved from sin. Intellectual understanding of the claims of Christianity and belief i…

I see; unfortunately, that's a disappointing answer. Maybe it's also worth pointing this out: > Intellectual understanding of the claims of Christianity and belief in its claims are totally separate. I don't think I've ever seen a clear separation of these things. At any rate, if I choose not to believe in the claims then I will be unwelcome by the congregation. In practice, these things seem to go hand-in-hand most…

> I don't think I've ever seen a clear separation of these things.

That's really too bad. Maybe I'll write an article or something.

> Also, I would like to thank you for taking the time to reply thoughtfully! I do believe you've been very honest and approaching the conversation in good faith (I have difficulty reading this without it coming off as snide, so please just take it at face value).

[×] Taken at face value. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss these things, and I wish you the best on this wild ride through life. I pray that God will bless you with the opportunity to know Him.

Re: The Ungodly Surveillance of Anti-Porn ‘Shameware’ Apps

#83
post #81
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What defines "bad" or "good" here? Bad = morally wrong, or "not okay" as you said. Specifically, you seem to be making the claim that all porn, even non-exploitative porn, is morally wrong in principle, the same way murder and rape are morally wrong (although less so.) This is what I'm challenging. > and I keep forgetting about the harm that comes to people who profit from the industry. What harm is that? (In order…

The friends are consensual, and they are simply inviting people to watch. It all sounds so welcoming, natural, wholesome, harmless. Of course it seems that way. Any person worth their salt in the industry would be ashamed to admit it depended solely on being addictive, and missed out on the opportunities created by also saying it's basically harmless. A really good spin would be to say instead of being harmless, why,…

We have very different ideal worlds, it seems. Here are my takes on your points:

1. Very broadly speaking, trans people cannot procreate in the usual way --- our hormone treatments make us sterile. We primarily use sex and fetishism as vehicles for self-exploration and, yes, self-improvement. Our desires express fundamental parts of ourselves, and I posit that we find the same kind of soul joy that you derive from submission to what you call God in playing together --- the ecstasy of being subsumed in something larger than yourself. You have your spiritual practice; we have ours. This is not an exaggeration.

2. Again, we can't procreate. And even if my HRT didn't make me sterile, I'd have myself sterilized because I am terribly afraid of what my child would have to witness.

3. I question what "honor in the bedrooms" means. This goes back to your ideal world versus mine. With the greatest respect, this language has been used for centuries to exclude me and mine from a sphere of life that is crucial to our existence, so you'll excuse me if I don't hold it in high esteem.

4. This argument proves quite a lot --- essentially, as I read it, saying that any sensual or mental pleasure that does not come from submission to what you call God is harmful/sinful. You are welcome to believe this, but trying to live under such a burden crushed my soul. So, no thank you.

More broadly, your argument adds up to "porn is harmful because it goes against the Christian notions of family, matrimony, procreation." My people's culture --- and it is a culture all its own --- does not have those notions, not in the same form. Many of us were disowned. A good portion of us were sent to Procrustean "reparative" therapy to try to make us cis and straight --- which would destroy the person we really are. I don't have a study for you, but anecdotally I'd say 90% of the stories I've heard happened under the banner of what you call God.

It's a little easier to argue that Procrustes' table is good when you already fit on it.

Re: The Ungodly Surveillance of Anti-Porn ‘Shameware’ Apps

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was raised Catholic, and none of that happened. You were raised by a lunatic.

I was raised by a Catholic deacon, in a family of prominence in my local diocese. Before dismissing my experiences and perspective, you would do well to question your own experiences and perspective. Perhaps you were raised thinking you were Catholic, but I was raised according to what the Church actually peddles. I was deeply involved. Mass every Sunday morning, beatings on Sunday night (most nights, actually), reli…

So I consider myself a fairly religious person. I went through RCIA and is in good communion with the Church. After I received Catechesis and was Baptized, I began to dig deeper.. I started reading many of the Encyclical Letters (Humane Vitae, Sacerdotalis Caelibatus, etc.), history of early Church fathers, as well the works of theological philosophy such as Summa Theloica and so on, I've concluded that far too many "Catholics" either have very little or no understanding of Catholicism at all.

When you mix this with right wing politics, nationalists, extremists,.. you end up with something that ventures so far from Catholicism that it becomes unrecognizable.

Just to make a single example nowhere in the Catechism does it say you should be shunned for refusing Confirmation.. in fact being "forced" to do any of it deems it invalid! Nor those it justify any kind of violence or hate towards transgenders and homosexuals.

It really is a shame that many Catholics (and broader Christians as well) seem to struggle with treating LGBT brothers and sisters with dignity. Treating another human being with dignity and respect does not mean you endorse any of their actions, it's just... how we are called to love.

There's nothing I want more for people than for them to realize that they have immense value as a child of God outside of anything else - their sexuality, their appearance, etc. because it's heartbreaking to me that many feel they do not.

Anyway, it doesn't take much for me to reconcile being respectful of others with my faith. I guarantee that I consistently fail at doing this in a proper way but I do try. We're all sinners in the end and we all have things that we need to work on.

I am sorry you went through this.

Re: The Ungodly Surveillance of Anti-Porn ‘Shameware’ Apps

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, I am certain every inclination of the human heart is evil from birth.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018:3&... That doesn't appear to check out biblicaly, or from any logical perspective I can think of.

I mean...

The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. Genesis 6:5

The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one. Psalm 14:3

What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous? Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water! Job 15:14

Re: The Ungodly Surveillance of Anti-Porn ‘Shameware’ Apps

#86
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a good Christian is all about trust! Just trust that Facebook won’t store your password and that Fortify will eventually fix this!

Being a good Christian shall not exclude rationality. Someone who has your password might use it or sell it to somebody who might use it.

> Being a good Christian shall not exclude rationality

I, for one, would question this.

Indeed I'd even say being a good human being is not always compatible with rationality.

Re: The Ungodly Surveillance of Anti-Porn ‘Shameware’ Apps

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sin is a heart issue. There are only two choices on the shelf: Pleasing God, or pleasing self.

Are you suggesting that God is completely opposed to everything we value?

Why do you think God refers to himself as a jealous God? What do you think God is jealous of? The only thing that can be denied or taken from him - love from beings with (ostensible) free will.

Re: The Ungodly Surveillance of Anti-Porn ‘Shameware’ Apps

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind providing citations of some of these cases?

I would mind. I can tell you that I have personal connections to persons who have abandoned their so called "sexual orientation". It is trivial to search for examples. There have been entire organizations of individuals claiming successful change of their sexual lifestyle. The problem is that you have a whole host of individuals and organizations who are opposed to the very concept of being able to change due to thei…

> I can tell you that I have personal connections to persons who have abandoned their so called "sexual orientation"

What are you trying to suggest by the use of "so-called" and scare quotes around "sexual orientation"? It's pretty well established that sexual orientation can be fluid in some individuals, and I don't doubt there are people who spend many years enjoying heterosexual relationships only to determine at a later point they prefer same sex relationships. The reverse may well also happen from time to time. Not really sure what point you're trying to make at all.

Re: The Ungodly Surveillance of Anti-Porn ‘Shameware’ Apps

#89
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was raised by a Catholic deacon, in a family of prominence in my local diocese. Before dismissing my experiences and perspective, you would do well to question your own experiences and perspective. Perhaps you were raised thinking you were Catholic, but I was raised according to what the Church actually peddles. I was deeply involved. Mass every Sunday morning, beatings on Sunday night (most nights, actually), reli…

So I consider myself a fairly religious person. I went through RCIA and is in good communion with the Church. After I received Catechesis and was Baptized, I began to dig deeper.. I started reading many of the Encyclical Letters (Humane Vitae, Sacerdotalis Caelibatus, etc.), history of early Church fathers, as well the works of theological philosophy such as Summa Theloica and so on, I've concluded that far too many…

I appreciate your heartfelt comment. The following is an honest criticism on your sentiment, which while well-meaning, is actually harmful to many children around the world right now who need a light shone on this issue.

> When you mix this with right wing politics, nationalists, extremists,.. you end up with something that ventures so far from Catholicism that it becomes unrecognizable.

The reality is that the past isn't so rosy, and that Catholicism and Christianity have always, in practice, served as political and financial instruments to those who wield them. The people at the very top know what they are enabling, just look at the response to pedophilia and abuse and how long it took for the Church to even appear to do something about it.

It's a transaction many gladly make, and one that was heavily advertised since the beginning: Sin on the weekdays, beg for forgiveness on the weekends. Receive a nicely packaged enemy to direct your class frustrations toward. All in exchange for a tithing and a warm body for any social causes.

> Just to make a single example nowhere in the Catechism does it say you should be shunned for refusing Confirmation.. in fact being "forced" to do any of it deems it invalid!

I wasn't forced to get confirmed. I had the option of becoming homeless and being cut off from my extended family, who were entirely Catholic and all attended different Churches (no isolated sects).

> It really is a shame that many Catholics (and broader Christians as well) seem to struggle with treating LGBT brothers and sisters with dignity.

...Have you read Genesis? The first book of the Bible? Where God destroys entire cities for having gay sex? That's basic Catholic literature, and if you are a true Catholic, it's something you believe in. If you don't believe in it, you're not a Catholic. It's not open for interpretation.

Also see Leviticus, etc. Or look at my patron saint, Joan of Arc, who got burned at the stake at age 17 for wearing pants.

> There's nothing I want more for people than for them to realize that they have immense value as a child of God outside of anything else - their sexuality, their appearance, etc. because it's heartbreaking to me that many feel they do not.

Thank you for believing in the innate humanity of every individual, and the right for their lifestyle choices to be respected and not infringed upon.

Unfortunately, that sentiment is anti-biblical, and you need to choose between maintaining that attitude and supporting an institution that has historically supported, and continues to support, unjust crusades and anti-humanitarian principles and political fascism.

Because you cannot do both, unless you don't fully understand the topics.

> Anyway, it doesn't take much for me to reconcile being respectful of others with my faith.

That's great. I was beaten almost nightly by a deacon who was revered in my community, shaken and spit at and told I had Satan inside of me, viciously whipped with the buckle ends of my tormentor's massive belt collection, until I couldn't cry anymore, because "men don't cry and I will whip you until you learn not to cry."

Every Sunday I would watch him dispense parables of love and acceptance, I would watch my community look up to him and ask him for advice. And then, on the way home, I'd be avoiding black eyes.

I remember one time on the way to Church, he and my brother began assaulting me. He stopped the car, pulled me out of the vehicle and threw me in a ditch, pinning me down. I was fifteen, finally getting old enough to fight back, and I managed to get him on the ground and kick him in the ribs until he stopped trying to attack me.

Then he got in the car, left me stranded on a highway and went to tell a sermon while I limped for miles back home. Then called the police on me and told them I was dangerous and armed, and when we got to the precinct he went on a violent rant about how I was an athiest, and I feared for my life as the police just watched, as they always did.

This wasn't a few times. This isn't just one bad apple. This is institutional, and I am a direct victim of this system from which you are fortunate enough to be on the beneficiary end of. I lived in fear of death my entire childhood.

The Church is not what you think it is. And remember that there are gigantic Catholic communities in Brazil, Mexico, Russia, and the Philippines, where systemic child abuse is still not only tolerated but in some cases encouraged.

Re: The Ungodly Surveillance of Anti-Porn ‘Shameware’ Apps

#90
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018:3&... That doesn't appear to check out biblicaly, or from any logical perspective I can think of.

I mean... The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. Genesis 6:5 The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one. P…

The first two references use phrasing of "had become" or "have all turned aside" - you cannot become something without first being something else, or turn aside from something without having originally been facing it.

The third reference is stating that no one is capable of perfection, and that no one can earn their way back to God - but impurity only requires that someone not be perfect, not that they have no good.

To be clear, my argument is not that humanity is 100% good because clearly that's not the case. My argument is simply that there is natural good in humanity as well, and most people have more of it as children than after it's beaten out of them as adults.

That is just my reading of course, and I am no expert.

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