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Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

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Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#81

They have not controlled for the most obvious variable: class. Obviously higher class individuals would score higher on their intelligence test having received better education It should not surprise anyone that people higher up the class hierarchy have more moderate, centrist views while those that are struggling and for which radical change is an objective need because the current system is not working for them, em…

As I've done better financially in life, I've become more radical. I'm one data point, but my experience contradicts your conclusion. I think in my case, it was a realization that I'm not working harder than other people or even working things that matter more than anybody else (in fact, on the contrary) and that at least 90% of my success can be attributed to luck. So if my success is not due to my deeds but rather…

Do you work in tech, WFH and make upwards of 200K/year :-)

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#82

If true, this would explain tensions here on HN when discussion of economic issues happens. HN readers are self selected high cognitive ability people.

> HN readers are self selected high cognitive ability people. Tech literate maybe, but if we judge from the deplorable quality content of the front page the past 1.5 year... Unless editorialized titles and 2500-word essays on CRUD are what high cognitive ability people are into now! I am aware there are exceptions to this, which is the reason I joined the site, but I've become disappointed over time to see that they…

[deleted]

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My hot take is that people who believe in IQ have low IQ.

What does it mean to not believe in IQ? Does that mean these high IQ people don't think IQ exists. It obviously exists. It's a real measure that people use. It's not like midichlorian count which is a measure from Starwars. Which doesn't exist because it only exists in the movies and doesn't measure something real (the force).

I would say (it has been a while), the common complaint that I've heard is the tests for IQ are not standardized - there are a million snake-oil pitches for free and paid online IQ tests - or that the real tests have a bunch of cultural bias that might skew the results... Or that IQ is inadequate as a measure of general intelligence (if IQ measures pattern matching effectively and it misses other kinds of reasoning entirely)...

lots of complaints I've heard - can't say one way or the other if there is any salt to them.

I haven't heard the complaint before that IQ is imaginary, that's a new one... I think through reading the exchange I see where the semantics shifted between people's thoughts, I doubt that's what the the poster above you meant - likely they meant a combination of the many complaints to dismiss the general usefulness of IQ tests as a predictor of intelligence.

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#84

Could be because the people who even know what those extremes are tend to be high IQ. It could still be true that self selecting into these beliefs conditional on knowing they exist predicts lower IQ. E.g, people who knows what ararcho-syndicalism is have a mean IQ of 125. People who believe it's a good idea are a subset of this group with an IQ of 115. So it appears that the belief predicts IQ but it's actually the…

This is a good point. Additionally, IQ measures a very specific type of cognitive ability. I am not so sure that those cognitive abilities are perfectly correlated with the sort of social and emotional intelligence required to assess the likely effectiveness of a political system.

If only there were half a century of research into exactly what IQ does and doesn't correlate with! Anyhow, my lukewarm take is that no level of "social and emotional intelligence" will allow you to assess the likely effectiveness of a political system, because why in the world would the built-in intelligence for interacting with a couple of hundred people be any good at predicting the aggregate behaviour of billions of people.

Instead, we have more general problem-solving skills that allowed us to develop things like statistics and economics and political theory. I leave it to the reader to determine how much social and emotional intelligence is required to excel at those. (As opposed to the merely analytical intelligence that IQ measures, I suppose. I have yet to see a definition of social/emotional intelligence that is coherent enough to be measured, and also actually meaningfully exists when measured.)

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it mean to not believe in IQ? Does that mean these high IQ people don't think IQ exists. It obviously exists. It's a real measure that people use. It's not like midichlorian count which is a measure from Starwars. Which doesn't exist because it only exists in the movies and doesn't measure something real (the force).

I would say (it has been a while), the common complaint that I've heard is the tests for IQ are not standardized - there are a million snake-oil pitches for free and paid online IQ tests - or that the real tests have a bunch of cultural bias that might skew the results... Or that IQ is inadequate as a measure of general intelligence (if IQ measures pattern matching effectively and it misses other kinds of reasoning e…

That sounds like a complaint that online IQ tests are bad, which is obviously correct but also not really relevant to IQ as studied in psychometrics.

The complaints I hear about IQ are completely opposite! People dislike standardized exams, including IQ tests, because of their standardization! That is, the need to assess everyone the same way precludes assessment specific to the individual being assessed. Detractors of IQ, insofar as they would like assessment at all, would prefer a more holistic procedure where the characteristics and capabilities of the assessee are analysed with due attention paid to the specific life history of said assessee.

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it mean to not believe in IQ? Does that mean these high IQ people don't think IQ exists. It obviously exists. It's a real measure that people use. It's not like midichlorian count which is a measure from Starwars. Which doesn't exist because it only exists in the movies and doesn't measure something real (the force).

I would say (it has been a while), the common complaint that I've heard is the tests for IQ are not standardized - there are a million snake-oil pitches for free and paid online IQ tests - or that the real tests have a bunch of cultural bias that might skew the results... Or that IQ is inadequate as a measure of general intelligence (if IQ measures pattern matching effectively and it misses other kinds of reasoning e…

There are certainly a lot of valid complaints about IQ. The lack of standardization is obviously a problem, and the cultural understanding of it is severely lacking. But study after study have shown that IQ is highly correlated with financial success, and at this point the confounders have been controlled well enough to say it’s hard for me to deny that pattern recognition, which is what well made iq tests measure, is a cause of success.

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#87

They have not controlled for the most obvious variable: class. Obviously higher class individuals would score higher on their intelligence test having received better education It should not surprise anyone that people higher up the class hierarchy have more moderate, centrist views while those that are struggling and for which radical change is an objective need because the current system is not working for them, em…

As I've done better financially in life, I've become more radical. I'm one data point, but my experience contradicts your conclusion. I think in my case, it was a realization that I'm not working harder than other people or even working things that matter more than anybody else (in fact, on the contrary) and that at least 90% of my success can be attributed to luck. So if my success is not due to my deeds but rather…

It seems to me you are overgeneralizing from your own case and understating the effects of your choices on the outcome in characterizing success as random. But even if it is random, you should hold out for demonstrably better alternative before giving up on preserving the existing one. There are worse outcomes than randomly distributed success.

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#88
> While this reveals motives such as malicious envy accounting for around half of support for redistribution (Lin & Bates, 2021; Lin & Bates, 2022; Sznycer et al., 2017)

Holy smokes, half? I'll admit this is something that appeals to my biases, but that seems like a rather significant finding (if true)

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#89
post #4

I wouldn't be surprised if "intelligence" would loosely predict extreme attitudes on almost any topic (such as is a hotdog a sandwich?).

I'm sad that free markets are viewed as an "extreme" position.

When people buy apples it is considered absolutely normal that apples go bad and spoil over time. If your unit of measurement is a golden apple that never rots, then it is only natural that the return on a spoiling apple is negative.

The moment people talk and think about money, they consider the mere concept of a negative return as some kind of monstrosity going against nature itself, despite the fact that money is a claim on labor and labor spoils just like an apple. The saver expects a reward for idleness, while the laborer without a job is getting punished by his enforced idleness. Money without negative return obligates men to become golden statues that never age, a world view that is obviously in dissonance with nature and reality.

Whenever the economy isn't growing, people will prefer an asset that bears a 0% return at no risk over any real investment.

In other words, there is no such thing as a free market without a monetary reform that allows negative interest rates or simply allows money to expire, the same way people age.

Here is another problem, eternal private landownership has the same problem. Let's assume you have a perpetuity that returns you $1 per year. At a zero interest rate its value is infinite and no, that isn't a problem with the concept of zero interest, the obvious problem is that a perpetuity cannot exist, even the planet itself has a finite lifespan, meaning the value of a single plot of land will only amount to billions of dollars. What's worth more? Money that works according to supply or demand or land that doesn't? Of course people are going to pick land. If landownership was eternal, then owning all of the land on the planet is equivalent to turning everyone else into illegal aliens that merely have been granted permission to exist on the planet and whose permission can be withdrawn at any time.

In the face of these two forces there cannot be something like a free market. It would always be a coercive market in one form or another.

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#90

Could be because the people who even know what those extremes are tend to be high IQ. It could still be true that self selecting into these beliefs conditional on knowing they exist predicts lower IQ. E.g, people who knows what ararcho-syndicalism is have a mean IQ of 125. People who believe it's a good idea are a subset of this group with an IQ of 115. So it appears that the belief predicts IQ but it's actually the…

I think there's also a (small) correlation between IQ the personality trait of "intellect", a sub-trait of openness that measures not so much how smart you are, but rather how interested you are in intellectual pursuits.

My guess is that people who score higher on "intellect" are more likely the kind of people who "take ideas seriously". That is, they tend to follow ideas to their logical conclusions.

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