Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

uncrunched.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 131 posts

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#81

Post by harryh »

neilk wrote: post #51

This is insane . You realize that all the quotes are from a post called the author describes as a 'cautionary tale'? ( http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/nscpdorm.html ) I think jwz sums it up best in another post, where he talks about the best case scenario: becoming rich from your startup: I've known dozens of instant-millionaires so far (from Netscape as well as other companies), and basically, I don't speak to any of the…

It's not that cautionary. If you went to jwz right now and asked him "If you went back in time and, knowing everything you know now about how much pain would be involved, would you sign up with Netscape again?"

I bet you he'd say yes.

"But who said everything has to be fun? Pain builds character. (Sometimes it builds products, too.)"

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#82

Post by smilliken »

dextorious wrote: post #11
kingofspain wrote: post #8

I'm so glad I was pushing 30 before I really became aware of this startup scene. The general impression that comes off, to me at least, is work hard, stop moaning, accept pennies and one day you'll be rich - assuming that unlikely outcome happens and we don't use of the thousand ways possible to screw you out of any riches. To me at least, and as an outsider, I'd say things like this may hold up for founders, but as…

"""I'm so glad I was pushing 30 before I really became aware of this startup scene. The general impression that comes off, to me at least, is work hard, stop moaning, accept pennies and one day you'll be rich - assuming that unlikely outcome happens and we don't use of the thousand ways possible to screw you out of any riches.""" Startups are tax for people who are good at math, but don't bother checking their odds.

Also consider that successful outcomes aren't distributed evenly; if you're exceptionally talented and work at an exceptionally good company, then it's not about odds, it's about execution. It's only gambling in the way a professional poker player gambles.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#83

Post by tjmc »

harryh wrote: post #79

It's worth quoting pg here: "Economically, you can think of a startup as a way to compress your whole working life into a few years. Instead of working at a low intensity for forty years, you work as hard as you possibly can for four. This pays especially well in technology, where you earn a premium for working fast." http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html I don't really understand all the backlash in this thread agai…

I don't think people are arguing against working hard, I think they're just pointing out the untold part of pg's wealth essay. Namely, you can work your butt off for that 4 years and still not make it. Sadly, that's a far more probable outcome than acquiring 40+ years of working income at the end of your 4 year stint.

Having said that, if you're young, dedicated and focussed and it interests you - hell, have a crack. But know what you're doing - startups are always a gamble.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#84

Post by kamaal »

neilk wrote: post #58
ChuckMcM wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think people appreciate the money aspect enough. It does change people and not always along a vector you would expect. It also changes people who don't get rich. Your a low number employee and your company goes public, woohoo you are rich, but people who work with you and came later and are doing the same job as you are not. The cognitive dissonance is huge, people sometimes feel guilty that they are rich and…

My point in quoting that wasn't that success is necessarily bad for you (Alex Ohanian seems to be doing okay, and jwz is himself a counterexample) it's that success in that sort of business has a large random component. The point of the OP's post is that huge sacrifices are necessary for great rewards. I think the truth is more like, your huge sacrifices are necessary so that our investment strategy works. Meanwhile,…

The definition of success itself varies among most of the people. Some people wish to make a dent in the universe, some people just want money. Some people want both.

Some people just want to be famous and remembered. Some people want to be something important part of an ecosystem who get to decide a lot of things. Some people just like Power and social status. Some people are in just for the fun of the game.

Some people just want to be happy. List can be really long. Basically its what you truly want.

Depending on that there are different things you need to be successful. There is no silver bullet.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#85

Post by brown9-2 »

It is a logical fallacy to believe that in order to mimic someone else's success you must also mimic all of the steps they took to get there.

Just because Microsoft, Facebook, or Netscape had long and crazy hours in the startup days doesn't mean you need to do the same thing to build the next Microsoft, Facebook, or Microsoft.

It's rather immature thinking to assume there is only one way to do something like this, or even that "this is just the way things work" when your company is based in a certain area of the country (Silicon Valley, California).

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#86

Post by brown9-2 »

xarien wrote: post #4

And that's why my hiring criteria has always hinged on the level of compulsion said candidate exhibits. Sleep needs to be a secondary concern when stacked against a deadline. Although, I will be the first to admit that every now and then I fully rest up and swear I'm going to get more sleep because I can actually see the productivity increase. That thought is often a quickly fleeting thought however....

So you actively promote and exhibit behavior that you admit decreases productivity (especially your own)?

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#87

Post by kamaal »

harryh wrote: post #81
neilk wrote: post #51

This is insane . You realize that all the quotes are from a post called the author describes as a 'cautionary tale'? ( http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/nscpdorm.html ) I think jwz sums it up best in another post, where he talks about the best case scenario: becoming rich from your startup: I've known dozens of instant-millionaires so far (from Netscape as well as other companies), and basically, I don't speak to any of the…

It's not that cautionary. If you went to jwz right now and asked him "If you went back in time and, knowing everything you know now about how much pain would be involved, would you sign up with Netscape again?" I bet you he'd say yes. "But who said everything has to be fun? Pain builds character. (Sometimes it builds products, too.)"

>>"But who said everything has to be fun? Pain builds character. (Sometimes it builds products, too.)"

Exactly. In fact all fun thing is said to make your position look a little good. Its not good if you depict the path to success as a painful journey. To make your story glorious you need to look like a hero and for that you need depict accomplishments in the most glorious way and make them seem effortless(fun).

Imagine a situation, if you are giving an advice to a young man. You will rather tell him to work on things he likes to work(fun) than on the ones he doesn't like. Although this is the advice in theory you would like to give. Deep within yourself you know very well, doing something big will require you to do stuff you don't like to do. Undergo, pain and sacrifice which you wouldn't like to endure normally.

Also 'struggle' is one the reasons most normal people are OK with their normal lives. I think most people just lack the required level of motivation and desire to overcome the pain to undergo the 'struggle' in the path to success. Most people just drop the plan to work hard calling it 'not worth it'.

People like to believe in a easy way out. They like to believe luck exists. Because that will give them an unfair advantage over others. That is, they can get rich even without working.

Hardwork is so inglorious, it make success look obvious. And moreover when you look at the big picture. It looks karma.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#88

Post by agentultra »

Work more, cry less, and quite all the whining... is this SV or Full Metal Jacket?

That's not advice. It's ignorance.

If you cannot get your work done in eight hours a day there is probably something that's off. Maybe you're underestimating the work. Maybe you're being optimistic about your deadlines. Maybe you're not being honest with yourself about how efficiently you're using your time in the day.

After eight hours of working on one thing I'm done. If I've used every hour of that day to it's full potential I don't have the will or inclination to keep working. I usually feel pretty good about going home. Tomorrow's another day at the dream factory. I'll decompress, read a book, hack on something fun, hang out with my wife, get my sleep and tomorrow I'll wake up fresh and ready for the new set of challenges.

Whenever a manager or project lead tells me something along the lines of, "just do what you have to do and get it done," I just want to instinctively tackle them and slap them hard across the face. Not because I hate working but because they're standing on the tracks and there's a big freight train coming that they're not seeing. Managers who do that are lazy and are just passing the buck. If they don't want to hear why they're about to get hit by a giant freight train you owe it to the team to do something about it.

You don't do that by keeping your mouth shut and your nose to the grind stone.

Edit: Fixed some spelling issues.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#89

Post by benwerd »

benwerd wrote: post #3

The more I think about this post, the more conflicted I am about it. On the surface, there are some obvious truths. Startups are hard; they're definitely not 9-to-5, 5-days-a-week jobs. There are also way too many people who think they're like a normal job but with added rockstar status and the potential to suddenly become fabulously wealthy, as if by random. But. As Arrington says, it's a mindset thing. It obviously…

Also, the more I think about it, the less appropriate his post is in the light of recent tragic events.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#90

Post by csmt »

neilk wrote: post #51

This is insane . You realize that all the quotes are from a post called the author describes as a 'cautionary tale'? ( http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/nscpdorm.html ) I think jwz sums it up best in another post, where he talks about the best case scenario: becoming rich from your startup: I've known dozens of instant-millionaires so far (from Netscape as well as other companies), and basically, I don't speak to any of the…

There are three possible outcomes for startups: (1) failure; (2) marginally successful; and (3) enormously successful. In case of (1) and (2) employees hardly make any money, and early employees may make money in case (3). More than 99% startups' outcome is either (1) or (2).

I feel startup world is highly skewed in favor of investors and founders. I have worked at a startup and now I would think twice before working for another startup, since rewards don't add up to effort and time because of odds.

Post reply on HN