John C. Mather: “There is no first moment of time” (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: John C. Mather: “There is no first moment of time” (2017)

#81

Post by tremon » Mon, Sep 12, 2022, 5:58 PM UTC

fortran77 wrote: post #27

I still like to believe there was, no matter what they say.

What's the reasoning behind that? Because I feel the other way: for me, it's much harder to accept the idea that the Big Bang that spawned our universe was a singular event, because that would mean that there is only one inevitable end: heat death. And even though it's unlikely the human race will still be there by that time, I don't like the prospect of such a pale and bleak ending.

If, on the other hand, you assume that there was some form of time/matter before the Big Bang, there is no reason to assume that there can be (or has been) only one big bang event. And that means there might be a multitude of "universes" outside of our visible field that we can never know about. Still, it's oddly comforting to me to believe that when our universe dies from heat death, others might go still on or start a new cycle.

Re: John C. Mather: “There is no first moment of time” (2017)

#82

Post by mensetmanusman » Mon, Sep 12, 2022, 9:25 PM UTC

kadoban wrote: post #30

idealmedtech wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he proved that under existing axiomatic systems, there are some statements which cannot be proven to be true axiomatically, even though they are true; such axiomatic systems are, in his terminology, incomplete. A subtle but important difference.

One thing I've always wondered is if there's any _interesting_ statements that can't be proved or if they're all kind of self-referential nonsense statements.

Sure there are, just choose your axioms that are interesting…

Re: John C. Mather: “There is no first moment of time” (2017)

#83

Post by mensetmanusman » Mon, Sep 12, 2022, 9:28 PM UTC

kadoban wrote: post #54

idealmedtech wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's whole _fields_ of inquiry that either take or leave the axiom of choice; so yes, absolutely.

Is that the kind of statement Godel was talking about? Seems to me to be somehow different. It's not really true or false, it's an arbitrary choice, so it's just something you either decide is part of your system or not, not a true statement that's unprovable. Maybe I'm missing something?

Axioms are, by definition, a choice.

Re: John C. Mather: “There is no first moment of time” (2017)

#84

Post by mensetmanusman » Mon, Sep 12, 2022, 11:50 PM UTC

tremon wrote: post #81

fortran77 wrote: post #27

I still like to believe there was, no matter what they say.

What's the reasoning behind that? Because I feel the other way: for me, it's much harder to accept the idea that the Big Bang that spawned our universe was a singular event, because that would mean that there is only one inevitable end: heat death. And even though it's unlikely the human race will still be there by that time, I don't like the prospect of such a pale and bleak ending. If, on the other hand, you assume…

“Big Bang that spawned our universe was a singular event, because that would mean that there is only one inevitable end: heat death.”

It doesn’t necessarily imply heat death, especially with inflation and non zero space time energy being generated somehow.