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Flanderization

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Re: Flanderization

#81

Post by RC_ITR »

vlunkr wrote: post #69
RC_ITR wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s something crazy. Rewatching early Simpsons episodes as someone who first saw Flanders post Flanderization: He’s a less compelling satire because it’s so nuanced, complex, and narrow. He’s not the obvious bad person that Marcy D’Arcy is, but he’s also not the aspirational zen master that Wilson from Home Improvement is either. He’s just kind of a normal-ish OK guy who’s not a compelling foil to Homer. Take his…

> He’s just kind of a normal-ish OK guy who’s not a compelling foil to Homer. I’ve heard that the idea behind Flanders was to invert the “wacky neighbor” trope (think Kramer) that was prevalent in sitcoms at the time. Being a normal and competent father is what makes him a foil to homer. I think both versions of the character are good.

But he’s not that good of a father. Dead Putters Society Ned is a villain for doing the exact same thing to Tod as Homer does to Bart.

I’m not saying it’s bad, it’s just a little off and somewhat muddy, because the character is still so undeveloped.

Re: Flanderization

#82

Post by ALittleLight »

KaoruAoiShiho wrote: post #68
shanusmagnus wrote: post #32

This is one of those moments that makes me fall in love with the internet all over again. I've thought about this idea (without knowing there was a term for it!) wrt aging in real life. So many people seem to become increasingly caricature as they get older. The guy who likes woodworking and European travel becomes the embodiment of woodworking and European travel. It's all he talks about. His kids roll their eyes at…

Just spend a week on tvtropes.org and you'll instantly become a better writer I think. It's not to say that tropes are bad but it's important to use it as a repository of easily accessible writing mistakes so you can quickly learn from the past and contextualize them for your own synthesis.

I don't think tropes are mistakes. In fact, looking at tvtropes you see lots of examples from the most popular and successful movies, TV shows, books, etc.

If you're a writer you should be trying to say something new, but you shouldn't try to make everything new. People would be confused and put off by something that was violating and subverting every trope in fiction, but they would be amused by something that subverts one or two tropes in an interesting way. And subversion isn't even necessary to be good fiction, you could imagine a well executed work that isn't pioneering, but is still quite satisfying.

Re: Flanderization

#83

Post by chasd00 »

matsemann wrote: post #57
shanusmagnus wrote: post #32

This is one of those moments that makes me fall in love with the internet all over again. I've thought about this idea (without knowing there was a term for it!) wrt aging in real life. So many people seem to become increasingly caricature as they get older. The guy who likes woodworking and European travel becomes the embodiment of woodworking and European travel. It's all he talks about. His kids roll their eyes at…

Do you need to prevent it? I think it's related to optimal stopping / the secretary problem. In the beginning, you explore. Later, you exploit by doing more of the things you found fruitful.

The stopping problem is a big part of it but I think also the older you get the less concerned you are about social conformity. You just do the things that make you happy regardless of what the young people think.

Re: Flanderization

#84

Post by jaimebuelta »

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #28
motohagiography wrote: post #7

Is Flanderization just synecdoche - where one attribute becomes the reference for the whole, or is it a new co-oridnate on the spectrum of metonymy and simile? The comment about Rick and Morty actively avoiding the flanderizing of their characters seems a bit off, as the whole season 5 finale was the flanderization of Morty, where he (a version of him) self actualizes as blandly malevolent, likely acting on urges tha…

Rick And Morty really took a nosedive for me the last couple seasons. It's always just been a fun-when-high recycling of Star Trek episodes and well-known sci-fi ideas to me, but it always had its own style, clever writing and great acting(especially Sarah Chalke). Lately the writing has felt a lot lazier, and I guess they ran out of good Star Trek episodes(understandable since none have been made for almost 20 years…

Also Rick and Morty is an incredibly nihilistic show. The character dynamics are terrible (to each other), and that limits the long term capacity for stories.

They were able to pull a good few seasons, but it starts looking as the same destructive jokes over and over.

I still watch it and enjoy it, but I feel a bit empty inside, it’s such a bleak view inside humanity…

Re: Flanderization

#85

Post by PKop »

ehsankia wrote: post #55
PKop wrote: post #47

It's almost like "specialization" or some sort of natural selection process. Characters accentuate specific unique aspects of themselves because otherwise they would have no reason to exist; the show could have anyone stand in to express generic qualities. Their quirks are what at first works with audiences, then writers keep going back to the well. The common aspects get selected out over time. A/B testing taken to…

I also don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. It feels like many of the examples given are the more extreme cases where it goes too far, but looking at the pilots of most TV shows (especially sitcoms), the characters are fairly generic and uninteresting, and they slowly build up their personas over time as writers write to the actor and to what works. Community is a good example of that, all the characters defi…

The tropes page mentions there's a bit of distinction between writer's figuring out the character; flanderization is addressing the point after the character is basically fleshed out, then accentuating whatever they are, often past the point of caricature as time goes on. So more of a long term process. I agree it doesn't have to be bad thing, I'd go so far as to say it is inevitable to large degree. It is writers jobs simply to manage this natural/inevitable dynamic, be careful with it, and eventually end the show before it loses it's appeal. Sort of a lifecycle of "success" of writing interesting characters especially in sitcoms where personality/humor dominates story, and there will be diminishing returns as character evolves to self parody.

Re: Flanderization

#86

Post by AndrewDucker »

corysama wrote: post #79
rockbruno wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watch an youtuber that makes videos about life in Japan and he mentioned recently about how this drives the direction of his videos against his will. Despite producing extremely high-quality videos, every video is accompanied by clickbait titles and the classic "=O" idiotic face thumbnail. The quality contrast between the cover and the video is immediately clear once you start watching the content. He mentioned tha…

Linus Tech Talks has a whole video explaining that they hate making YouTube Face thumbnails, but their numbers are dramatically worse when they don’t.

Lots of UK tech magazines used to use scantily clad women on the cover (holding up some piece of tech).

When challenged on it they responded that when they didn't their sales went down by a significant percentage.

Re: Flanderization

#87

Post by phist_mcgee »

rockbruno wrote: post #62
adamgordonbell wrote: post #5

There is a tendency for this to happen in real life with influencers. Certain aspects resonate with an audience and so they overemphasize them. https://gurwinder.substack.com/p/the-perils-of-audience-capt...

I watch an youtuber that makes videos about life in Japan and he mentioned recently about how this drives the direction of his videos against his will. Despite producing extremely high-quality videos, every video is accompanied by clickbait titles and the classic "=O" idiotic face thumbnail. The quality contrast between the cover and the video is immediately clear once you start watching the content. He mentioned tha…

As another commenter on HN said yesterday, sell people what they want, but give them what they need.

If it's abroad in Japan, I would say he's found a great way to hit mass appeal but still maintain his authentic and snarky takes on the country.

If it's Paolo from Tokyo, I'd say he's defensively changed over the years and has become much more focused on clicks over real substance.

If it's neither of them, then still give those two channels a watch, especially the stuff from several years ago.

Re: Flanderization

#88

Post by phist_mcgee »

oaththrowaway wrote: post #73
frodetb wrote: post #59

Years ago, I was talking to a friend about IASIP, South Park, and Arrested Development, and why they had held up so well. I argued that it partly had to do with the fact that the characters were already so extreme, they were resistant to Flanderization.

IASIP dived deep into Flanderization. Mac being gay, Dennis being a psychopath, Charlie being an idiot, etc. They have all gotten more pigeon holed as the show has gone along.

Wouldn't you still call that character development?

I mean Charlie was always an idiot, except for maybe season 1.

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