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The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

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Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#81

Unsustainable. If you're a wealthy individual living in an expensive residence surrounded by other wealthy individuals living in expensive residences, you still need garbagemen to collect your garbage. You still need food. Whether you order from local restaurants staffed by employees, or buy your groceries at the supermarket, staffed by employees, janitorial personnel, security guards, and managers, you're still rely…

> Be a YIMBY. Embrace looser zoning regulations and more and denser housing where you live. And don't jack up the rent to market rates if you're already turning a profit.

Eh. Waiting for people to forgo short-term profit from the goodness of their hearts under capitalism is a losing battle. The system must be built to prevent such behaviours and outcomes, rather than relying on individual good-will.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#82

This same story seems to be playing out anywhere that attracts it and allows it.

There are good arguments that foreigners should only be allowed to own real estate only in specific places and that citizenship should be by blood only for small countries - let's say under 100000 sq km and 50 million people. Too easy for them to be overtaken by global elite otherwise.

Citizenship-by-investment programs are dominated by small nations. Seems like smaller nations actually disproportionately favor absorbing richer foreigners.

The most extreme example is probably Comoros, which up until a few years ago you could become a citizen for $45k over-the-counter.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#83
post #77
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Portuguese case is quite different, I think. Canada has a well-developed and diversified economy. Portugal needs to import a lot from the world, but has very little to offer in exchange. They found something: their real estate and city center spaces. The country NEEDS this foreign income. It's not a self-sustainable economy and the world won't work for them for free. If the Portuguese want to solve this issue, on…

The question in my mind is how can a country like Portugal grow something home grown, industry/economy wise to ameliorate this situation? Ukraine had traditional industries but it seems like the IT/knowledge worker base they built up over the past 5-10 years seems to be softening some of the economic blows of the war for them, but I can't imaging IT is the answer to every country...

> The question in my mind is how can a country like Portugal grow something home grown, industry/economy wise to ameliorate this situation?

They are looking to expand their maritime territory. They might have a credible claim to it.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#86
post #54

Step 1: nearly bankrupt your country Step 2: sell out your country to wealthy foreigners to "stimulate the economy" Step 3: act surprised that you can't afford living in your country, that got sold out to wealthy foreigners

In this case, the 'wealthy foreigners' are large corporations (and foreign governments). Not the occasional gringo that decides to bridge the language barrier and buy property there.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#87
5 years resident here (as a Brexit refugee).

Central city locations in Lisbon and Porto have exploded in price, but this is due to AirBnB rather than rich expats. Portugal's tourism industry has boomed, which has put money in a lot of people's pockets, but has distorted local economies somewhat. Better management is required, for example cracking down on AirBnB and NOT building that new cruise liner terminal.

Unfortunately the upper middle class idyll (alluded to in the article) of living a dilapidated (but in a cool way) apartment ten paces from your favourite coffee shop, while doing a socially respectable play job is now no more viable here than in SF, London or Berlin. Indeed, my own favourite 'coffee shop' got turned into a chain tequila bar.

Outside the hot centres, things aren't as bad. Public transport (at least in the AML - Lisbon Metropolitan Area) is excellent by any standard, and decent apartments are available for sensible prices well within one hour public transport commute of the downtown. Compare with London, where people are fighting over each rental.

> family factor weighs a lot here

Yes, and this is a problem, given that Portugal only became democratic 48 years ago and has a large amount of cultural baggage from quite frankly medieval times. Also, the implication of this statement is that family doesn't count elsewhere - and in case you missed it it was spelled out a few lines later, which should give you an idea of the residual naivety and insularity of (old) Portuguese culture. Agency - the idea that you can do or think something independently, and then take responsibility for it - is somewhat lacking too.

But! There is much that is very good about Portugal and the Portuguese people, I feel that here it is ok to be kind to each other. Furthermore, there are good changes, new opportunities are arising (perhaps in a very small part to some of the more productive visa holders), and I see a great future for Portugal - even if many Portuguese often don't.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#88
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heavily taxing houses that stay empty and limiting short duration rental could be quite effective. The issue is somewhat the same in Paris. It’s very hard to afford living there because non local use properties as an investment and prefer them staying empty than risking them degraded and people who want to rent make more money on Airbnb. It’s fine if you want the city to become Disneyland but very depressing otherwis…

This issue of speculation on empty properties would be, if not solved, then at least immensely alleviated with a Georgist LVT (Land Value Tax), a tax on properties equal to the rent for the undeveloped piece of land. It's easy to implement, the market exists to price that amount, and provides a direct incentive to either put the property to productive use or get rid of it. Building physical houses to sit empty as a f…

> Building physical houses to sit empty as a financial instrument has to be one of the peaks of capitalist insanity.

I quite agree, and I am therefore very suspicious that this is actually happening in significant volume! I have never seen convincing evidence that this happens, and it, at least superficially, makes no sense as a money-making scheme (Worried about degradation? That just means you should get insurance.) In general, it doesn't make financial sense to keep capital idle, and claims of such should be taken with a grain of salt, especially if the messaging is politically charged as "rich foreigners are screwing the common man over to make money".

I agree that an LVT would be the solution if this were actually a problem. And that an LVT solves many other problems unrelated to evil foreign billionaires.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#89
post #77
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Portuguese case is quite different, I think. Canada has a well-developed and diversified economy. Portugal needs to import a lot from the world, but has very little to offer in exchange. They found something: their real estate and city center spaces. The country NEEDS this foreign income. It's not a self-sustainable economy and the world won't work for them for free. If the Portuguese want to solve this issue, on…

The question in my mind is how can a country like Portugal grow something home grown, industry/economy wise to ameliorate this situation? Ukraine had traditional industries but it seems like the IT/knowledge worker base they built up over the past 5-10 years seems to be softening some of the economic blows of the war for them, but I can't imaging IT is the answer to every country...

Look at Singapore, for example. Its situation was orders of magnitude worse than Portugal decades ago. Now they are probably twice as better.

The key is: stop complaining about "the rich is this, the rich is that" and start thinking about how to be competitive in the 21st century. There are many opportunities, but are Portuguese citizens interested in taking the effort and sacrifice to explore them? The answer to this question is the real explanation for the hard time they're going through, not "rich-blaming".

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#90

Some Canadian cities responded to this with a foreign buyers tax, notably in Vancouver. Florida has a method for balancing its "snowbird" population to do with foreign buyers. Personally, I think this is the effect of governments themselves no longer believing in nations and borders or a responsibility for them, and simply importing polarized populations of both very rich and very poor people whose effect in concert…

Absolutely now way that the "votes that come from importing wealthy people [...]" are going to be enough to get politicians elected - not enough wealthy people in the world. The real risk is the continued rise of populism which will result in cynical policies rather than real solutions for dealing with the increasing wealth gap.
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