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Amid chip shortages, companies bet on RISC-V

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Re: Amid chip shortages, companies bet on RISC-V

#81

Post by pclmulqdq »

hajile wrote: post #70
pclmulqdq wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stolen architectures cannot be legitimately sold outside of China, due to patents held by ARM ltd. RISC-V avoids these headaches.

Does anyone outside of China want Chinese spy chips regardless of architecture?

Why do you call them "spy" chips? Have they been found to generally have backdoors?

In an embedded context, a lot of that doesn't matter either way - your dumb coffee maker doesn't have a lot of opportunity to spy on you anyway. Smart devices are a very different story. However, Chinese embedded chips are often very cheap for the capabilities.

Re: Amid chip shortages, companies bet on RISC-V

#82

Post by CameronNemo »

hajile wrote: post #70
pclmulqdq wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stolen architectures cannot be legitimately sold outside of China, due to patents held by ARM ltd. RISC-V avoids these headaches.

Does anyone outside of China want Chinese spy chips regardless of architecture?

Tons of hobbyists buy PINE hardware. All of their SoCs are Chinese (Rockchip, Allwinner). Hardkernel/Odroid stuff is a mix of Amlogic, Intel, and Rockchip.

Outside the hobbyist space people do seem to be shunning Chinese SoCs AFAICT. Maybe no name TV boxes have rockchips, but other than that not much.

Re: Amid chip shortages, companies bet on RISC-V

#83

Post by martin1975 »

mlindner wrote: post #11

Using RISC-V doesn't let you bypass chip shortages... Do they actually understand what they're talking about?

Sometimes it's not about an actual shortage, but more of an imposed (political/business motivated) shortage. If RISC-V can alleviate these concerns, the alleged 'shortage' may disappear.

Re: Amid chip shortages, companies bet on RISC-V

#84

Post by giantrobot »

worldofmatthew wrote: post #21
dontlaugh wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But I think more importantly, there will be no demand until someone makes a RISC-V CPU that can actually compete with Intel, AMD and Apple on performance.

A fees dollars saved from not paying ARM will guarantee adoption in low end laptops, tablets and smartphones. $100 Laptops, $70 phones and $50 tablets will be a big target for RISC-V.

All of those things you mention take advantage of the economies of scale of ARM production. They exist because a few years ago the basebands they're using were top of the line and were used in upmarket devices. They can buy an old baseband/board design, attach a screen and battery, and have a cheapo device for essentially zero development cost.

If RISC-V doesn't see the development for upmarket products it's not going to magically take over the downmarket segments. No one footing the development bill is going to selling $50 tablets.

Re: Amid chip shortages, companies bet on RISC-V

#85

Post by mjevans »

anfilt wrote: post #80
justahuman74 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more about a potential future usage of ARM in a sanctions package. Somewhat similar to how Hauwai was was hit with a list of narrow prohibitions like access to the android store. Having an openly implementable ISA is just one less thing to worry about

This one I am really torn on. On one hand I really like that RISC-V is open. However, on the other hand I do not like the idea of it being used to avoid sanctions. The problem is an ISA that can be sanctioned is not truly open. The two desires are definitely at odds with each other. Like the RISC-V foundation moved to Switzerland to avoid the possibility in 2019. So the foundation is definitely trying to keep things…

Speaking a common language is a good thing. This is no more difficult than a sanction on something already common like food crops.

Re: Amid chip shortages, companies bet on RISC-V

#86

Post by humanwhosits »

worldofmatthew wrote: post #51
justahuman74 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ARM could just start price-matching the various RISC-V vendors, making themselves the easier choice due to the software ecosystem

They would have to offer the core for free to the SOC designers.

The (good) riscv cores designs that implement the spec aren't free, it's the ISA spec that is free.

There are some open source riscv cores, but the paid ones make money for a reason

Re: Amid chip shortages, companies bet on RISC-V

#87

Post by giantrobot »

crote wrote: post #48
mysterydip wrote: post #29

What I don't get is there's millions of "good enough" e-waste motherboards, RAM, CPUs etc. out there. Wouldn't recycling be better than having nothing or waiting indefinitely? Are there that many workloads that can only run on brand new hardware?

It depends. First of all, we aren't really talking about motherboards or CPUs here. It is embedded electronics, not desktop computing. They are highly specialized application-specific electronics, which require a lot of engineering time to design, validate, and certify. It is nothing at all like the computer ecosystem, where you can just swap in a different motherboard. Boards are designed to use very specific chips,…

> Electronics can often be repaired, but we throw them away instead.

A skilled technician replacing a 2¢ part on a $10 board costs more than a new $10 board. Just disassembling that board to recycle parts off of it will cost more than the board originally cost to manufacture.

You also run into the same argument against landfill airbag controllers. A factory that produces a million boards can have very good reliability metrics. A skilled technician not only has more variable output but less accurate quality metrics unless they put a lot of extra effort into process controls.

A recycled board will cost more and be statistically less reliable from a brand new board. It would be more efficient to just mechanically separate them to extract raw materials.

Re: Amid chip shortages, companies bet on RISC-V

#88

Post by nivenkos »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #81
hajile wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone outside of China want Chinese spy chips regardless of architecture?

Why do you call them "spy" chips? Have they been found to generally have backdoors? In an embedded context, a lot of that doesn't matter either way - your dumb coffee maker doesn't have a lot of opportunity to spy on you anyway. Smart devices are a very different story. However, Chinese embedded chips are often very cheap for the capabilities.

And all Intel and AMD processors have "spy" capabilities too with the built-in black-box Intel Management Engine and AMD Platform Security Processor. And it's only becoming more powerful and commonplace with remote attestation and Microsoft Pluton. In a few years PCs might become just like mobile phones - the bootloader locked down requiring signed images from Microsoft, etc.

Given all of that, China seems like a great option if they produce RISC-V processors.

Re: Amid chip shortages, companies bet on RISC-V

#89

Post by YetAnotherNick »

amelius wrote: post #47
mlindner wrote: post #11

Using RISC-V doesn't let you bypass chip shortages... Do they actually understand what they're talking about?

If you can't have the existing chips, why not use your time to think about better chips?

Why is it better than say ARM?

Re: Amid chip shortages, companies bet on RISC-V

#90

Post by sangnoir »

throwaway4good wrote: post #71
pclmulqdq wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that resolution has occurred in favor of the CCP. ARM Ltd folded. The person who controls the corporate seals is a CCP apparatchik.

Remember this is a joint venture with 51% Chinese ownership. Meaning of course the Chinese have the final word.

...but my fiduciary duty compels me to maximize short-term profits for my shareholders
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