Why American cities are broke (2021) [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#81

Post by Enginerrrd » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #41

foobarian wrote: post #17

I am biased because I quite like living in the suburbs, and get quite suspicious when some manifesto comes up that dictates I should feel bad for it. Why is the solution to live in better designed cities instead of better designed suburbs? Are cities still necessary given the modern conditions?

There's a reason suburbs are located directly adjacent to density and not islands of development in the middle of nowhere. Suburbs survive by proximity to density and, in most cases, pay no taxes to support that density. Further, they use the state (via zoning laws) to prevent the natural development of more housing within their borders, guaranteeing a perpetual state of dependence, and ensuring that prices stay high…

>Further, they use the state (via zoning laws) to prevent the natural development of more housing within their borders, guaranteeing a perpetual state of dependence, and ensuring that prices stay high enough to keep out the riffraff.

>It's a fundamentally parasitic arrangement.

Except that those "riff raff" aren't footing much if any of the tax bill for the high density city. That bill is paid by the wealthier people, many of whom are living in those suberbs, subsidizing the city costs. Who is parasitizing whom here?

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#82

Post by dsr_ » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:16 PM UTC

technovader wrote: post #61

evolve2k wrote: post #3

NotJustBikes are doing some incredible work. It’s really time to reframe how we plan our cities and make the spaces we occupy designed for human scale engagement. I encourage anyone interested in this video to definitely check out more of their videos, so much valuable insight as to practically how our urban spaces could be incredible to live in.

Is it just me or do Americans just hate hearing that their city design is terrible?

Everybody hates hearing criticism of the things that they accept as normal.

The portions of US cities that were built before mass automobiles -- say, 1930 - are comparable to European cities built between 1650 and 1930.

Europe got hit by WWII and the necessity of rebuilding in basically the same footprint. The US got hit by automobiles and the lack of necessity.

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#83

Post by AlexandrB » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:17 PM UTC

honkdaddy wrote: post #57

azemetre wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't feel bad but it's more of a matter that your lifestyle is likely heavily subsidized because your town doesn't have the tax base (nor will they raise your taxes) to support the infrastructure that's required to make suburbs function. If you were paying the true costs of living in the suburbs this wouldn't be an issue, but there's a high likelihood you don't. Cities will always be necessary because they a…

I think it's difficult for someone to have much perspective on how much their own lifestyle is subsidized when the same can be said for the vast majority of people who enjoy benefits from the government, regardless of where they choose to live. Most people take more than they contribute, I don't think someone making $120,000 and paying $40,000 in taxes should feel any guilt for living in the suburbs when so many othe…

The person making $120,000 is heavily benefiting from a public infrastructure that makes $120k/yr jobs possible. A ditch digger needs almost no infrastructure besides a shovel to do his job. An engineer needs schools and universities to educate his colleagues, roads and railways to deliver parts required for the product he's working on, and police services that deter theft of those products once they're built. Not to mention a consumer base with enough money to afford the product in question.

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#84

Post by dionidium » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:17 PM UTC

NikolaNovak wrote: post #24

m0llusk wrote: post #2

Found the text version more compelling myself: https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme

Thanks; the "Why", or the interesting part of "Why", seems only alluded to, rather than explicitly discussed. Is it that the low density of suburban development means that tax collected per area unit, is less than infrastructure maintenance per area unit? And is the even more implied solution to increase urban density at least to the point where revenue per area matches expenses per area?

It also means (and by "means" I mean "necessitates" or "requires") decay. Suburban development in metros that aren't otherwise growing guarantees decline elsewhere in the region. Sometimes people look at a place like North St. Louis in disbelief -- "how could all these houses have been abandoned?" -- without ever considering the fundamentals. The region has expanded to cover hundreds of square miles of new development since 1970 all with like 1% population growth. They doubled the number of houses, but they didn't double the number of households.

Decline is an illustration of the pigeonhole principle.

So it's not just that the new suburbs are too low-density to support themselves; they also create the conditions whereby the old parts of the city also de-densify to unsustainable levels.

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#85

Post by eschulz » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:19 PM UTC

azemetre wrote: post #43

foobarian wrote: post #17

I am biased because I quite like living in the suburbs, and get quite suspicious when some manifesto comes up that dictates I should feel bad for it. Why is the solution to live in better designed cities instead of better designed suburbs? Are cities still necessary given the modern conditions?

You shouldn't feel bad but it's more of a matter that your lifestyle is likely heavily subsidized because your town doesn't have the tax base (nor will they raise your taxes) to support the infrastructure that's required to make suburbs function. If you were paying the true costs of living in the suburbs this wouldn't be an issue, but there's a high likelihood you don't. Cities will always be necessary because they a…

I think an article you may be referring to is the in-depth Strong Towns series that analyzes Galesburg, Illinois. Galesburg is by no means a suburb, and in many ways it's more comparable to a big city since it dominates its county and has little suburbs of its own. I think the assessment was that Galesburg officials are making incredibly unfortunate and wasteful decisions, but the good news is that there are examples of better financial choices they can make going forward.

However, if another article on this subject comes to mind I'd appreciate to know what it is, once you're off the train of course.

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#86

Post by orthecreedence » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:19 PM UTC

sfifs wrote: post #73

azemetre wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't feel bad but it's more of a matter that your lifestyle is likely heavily subsidized because your town doesn't have the tax base (nor will they raise your taxes) to support the infrastructure that's required to make suburbs function. If you were paying the true costs of living in the suburbs this wouldn't be an issue, but there's a high likelihood you don't. Cities will always be necessary because they a…

Why should every small sub-section of geographies "pay-out" for themselves. The whole point of higher level organizing constructs (company, conglomerate, state, country) is we take systemically better decisions - which at a nation level will involve keeping people with different preferences united under the nation's big idea by supporting the diversity of preferences. If to take an example Google insisted every devel…

Maybe they shouldn't pay out for themselves, but we should at least be aware of the costs so we can collectively plan and prioritize accordingly.

The same groups/organizations you named will often end activities or sub-groups that have a cost above a certain threshold.

I believe the overall intent here is to show the true cost of suburbs and evaluate if it's a pattern that cities can keep supporting. Ie, is the desire to live in the conditions suburbs create worth the cost of those arrangements?

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#87

Post by causi » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:19 PM UTC

azemetre wrote: post #43

foobarian wrote: post #17

I am biased because I quite like living in the suburbs, and get quite suspicious when some manifesto comes up that dictates I should feel bad for it. Why is the solution to live in better designed cities instead of better designed suburbs? Are cities still necessary given the modern conditions?

You shouldn't feel bad but it's more of a matter that your lifestyle is likely heavily subsidized because your town doesn't have the tax base (nor will they raise your taxes) to support the infrastructure that's required to make suburbs function. If you were paying the true costs of living in the suburbs this wouldn't be an issue, but there's a high likelihood you don't. Cities will always be necessary because they a…

I don't think his conclusions are great if you're working based off his examples. Like he brings up an example of a small neighborhood that, if it paid for its own road maintenance, would have to raise property taxes by 46% like that would be more than a mild inconvenience for the privilege of not living in a human hive.

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#88

Post by cwoolfe » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

I grew up in the suburbs. By the time I was a teenager I couldn't help but ask: "Why is everything here new? And why are all the people white?" I took a look at "White Flight: Atlanta and the Making of Modern Conservatism" for some answers.

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#89

Post by bbarn » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #41

foobarian wrote: post #17

I am biased because I quite like living in the suburbs, and get quite suspicious when some manifesto comes up that dictates I should feel bad for it. Why is the solution to live in better designed cities instead of better designed suburbs? Are cities still necessary given the modern conditions?

There's a reason suburbs are located directly adjacent to density and not islands of development in the middle of nowhere. Suburbs survive by proximity to density and, in most cases, pay no taxes to support that density. Further, they use the state (via zoning laws) to prevent the natural development of more housing within their borders, guaranteeing a perpetual state of dependence, and ensuring that prices stay high…

This point of view ignores the fact that suburbs are also necessary for employers to be able to have an ample worker pool without paying salaries that are high enough to afford city-only residents (a cost that would go even higher as more people moved into a city for work). Many people in suburbs who work in cities would not be able to afford living in that city, or, flat out refuse to because cities aren't always the best places for families.

Suburbs are a compromise.

Re: Why American cities are broke (2021) [video]

#90

Post by davidn20 » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:21 PM UTC

sfifs wrote: post #73

azemetre wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't feel bad but it's more of a matter that your lifestyle is likely heavily subsidized because your town doesn't have the tax base (nor will they raise your taxes) to support the infrastructure that's required to make suburbs function. If you were paying the true costs of living in the suburbs this wouldn't be an issue, but there's a high likelihood you don't. Cities will always be necessary because they a…

Why should every small sub-section of geographies "pay-out" for themselves. The whole point of higher level organizing constructs (company, conglomerate, state, country) is we take systemically better decisions - which at a nation level will involve keeping people with different preferences united under the nation's big idea by supporting the diversity of preferences. If to take an example Google insisted every devel…

The problem with that analogy is, suburbs doesn't benefit anyone besides the people living in them. So, by that logic, they should sustain themselves. Maps, Docs, and etc provide value to people outside themselves.