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What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

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Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#81

Post by fezfight »

skippyboxedhero wrote: post #74
nemesisj wrote: post #4

I follow the referenced instagram account and I actually find it depressing. I've probably visited Beirut 20+ times over the last 7 years. Last visit was summer of 2019, so haven't been since COVID. My company has an office there. It's one of my favorite cities in the world. It's also one of the most heartbreaking situations in economic and humanitarian terms. The country has experienced one of the worst currency cri…

100 years? It was basically a first-world country 50 years ago. The decline in living standards in Lebanon is one of the largest ever (Argentina probably the biggest, Venezuela is the other big one, Lebanon is somewhere around Venezuela). Countries can come back (the country that was Austro-Hungary, Slovakia has a city with one of the highest GDP per capita in Europe after massive repeated collapses), but there is (a…

And let's say what it is: greed.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#82

Post by Spooky23 »

narrator wrote: post #34
ecopoesis wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Like the religious extremists that destroyed American cities like Detroit and Baltimore in the 70s and after? Maybe it was this same religious extremism that is leading to the economic crisis today in Florida and Texas? /s

That’s white flight and collapse of legacy industry. Different problem.

The weird theocratic/government stuff you see in places like Texas is bad news. No different than the catholic dominated political machines that ruled the Northeast.

The thing is, you might be cool with their politics today, but religious extremists flip on a dime. You may not like them tomorrow.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#83

Post by nine_k »

Theodores wrote: post #76
babarock wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Lebanese, I find what you're saying both slightly offensive and slightly true. Lebanon, as a culture distinct from other middle easterners has existed for a very long time. Lebanon as an independent state has been invented in 1920, however there were multiple previous attempts historically to get independance. We had high levels of autonomy under the Ottoman rule: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Lebanon_Muta…

I think that there are many national identities that are similar. Poland is an example. Regarding the article, before and after pictures of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria to name a few places are the same. Prosperous sovereign nations outside Western Europe and North America are bad for business.

I wonder why prosperous sovereign nations in South Asia are not bad for business.

Maybe because they don't have the oil.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#84

Post by skippyboxedhero »

fezfight wrote: post #81
skippyboxedhero wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100 years? It was basically a first-world country 50 years ago. The decline in living standards in Lebanon is one of the largest ever (Argentina probably the biggest, Venezuela is the other big one, Lebanon is somewhere around Venezuela). Countries can come back (the country that was Austro-Hungary, Slovakia has a city with one of the highest GDP per capita in Europe after massive repeated collapses), but there is (a…

And let's say what it is: greed.

Greed existed before 1975. Are you saying Americans aren't greedy? And that is why they are so rich?

To be more specific: Lebanon was a country that had avoided the stuff going on elsewhere in the Middle East. The PLO gets involved, and the country implodes.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#85

Post by fezfight »

skippyboxedhero wrote: post #84
fezfight wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And let's say what it is: greed.

Greed existed before 1975. Are you saying Americans aren't greedy? And that is why they are so rich? To be more specific: Lebanon was a country that had avoided the stuff going on elsewhere in the Middle East. The PLO gets involved, and the country implodes.

Yes, the cause of all human on human suffering since the dawn of time is greed. Its almost a tautology so maybe it didn't need to be said.

For the record, I'm a Canadian who went to school with countless Lebanese people in Ottawa. I'm a big fan!

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#86

Post by googlryas »

campground wrote: post #40
james-redwood wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lebanon became independent in 1945. Civil war began in 1975, largely as a result of radical Islamist Palestinians who had left Palestine and wanted an Islamic state in Lebanon. Lebanon beforehand, it is important to note, was not Muslim majority at all. It was Christian and Druze, and that was the very foundation of the country itself. It was never the country of Muslims in the first place. Iran was also never coloni…

Iran may not have been colonized but their democratic government was overthrown by the US and Britain to prevent them nationalizing their fossil fuel supply. I often wonder what the Middle East would look like today if Iran has been able to use their oil wealth for their own democratic civil development.

That's not really what happened. The Shah was the ultimate authority in Iran, and he asked the Prime Minister to step down, which was his legal right. The Prime Minister said "No thanks, I'm the boss now", at which point the US/UK helped the Shah assert his actual legal right under their existing rule of law.

Can you tell me - if Queen Elizabeth asked that Boris Johnson step down from role as PM(which is her right), and Boris Johnson instead refused and said that he was now the leader of the UK, whose side would you throw your support behind?

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#87

Post by suzzer99 »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #47
martincmartin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The country is in complete deadlock politically - all of the warlords from the civil war just became politicians and then systematically looted the country. I always wonder why many democracies devolve into politicians just looting the government, whereas others become successful and relatively less corrupt.

Not the best or deepest account, but for the modern reader who can't spare time on Aristotle and a gamut of old beards [1] Acemoglu and Robinson's account is clear and interesting reading [2]. In the case of Lebanon, the story is that it's ethnic/religious diversity is too much for stability, it being constantly open to interference from its neighbours and super-powers playing proxy war games. [1] https://en.wikipedi…

Plenty of places with high ethnic/religious diversity have thrived: Singapore, Istanbul, New York City, (increasingly) the capitals of Western Europe. Teotihuacan, the largest pyramid complex outside of Egypt, was a multi-cultural city where different religions, languages and ethnicities lived side by side for 1000 years. It can be done.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#88

Post by martincmartin »

kamaal wrote: post #32
martincmartin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The country is in complete deadlock politically - all of the warlords from the civil war just became politicians and then systematically looted the country. I always wonder why many democracies devolve into politicians just looting the government, whereas others become successful and relatively less corrupt.

Because voting is just a small part of Democracy. Democracies need strong and independent, judicial, law making and executive branches. Voting itself is an averaging process, and you get the average of what ordinary citizen wants. It is hard to make people want good things for themselves without proactive investments in education and developing a population with scientific temper.

So then the question becomes "why do many democracies not develop strong and independent, judicial, law making and executive branches, whereas others do?"

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#89

Post by suzzer99 »

loonster wrote: post #77
literallyWTF wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need people who believe their government is legitimate and that the mechanism of voting is valid. You don’t see that anymore in America anymore for example, republicans across the nation believe that if there candidate loses, it must be voter fraud by either by one scheme or another. Shit, Trump himself still claims that he won the previous election.

There was obvious voter fraud in the 2020 election. The only question that should be disputed is if it was enough to sway the election.

No, there absolutely was not obvious voter fraud in 2020. That's the Big Lie.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#90

Post by amanaplanacanal »

skippyboxedhero wrote: post #73
literallyWTF wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need people who believe their government is legitimate and that the mechanism of voting is valid. You don’t see that anymore in America anymore for example, republicans across the nation believe that if there candidate loses, it must be voter fraud by either by one scheme or another. Shit, Trump himself still claims that he won the previous election.

2016 forgotten already.

Pretty sure everybody understood that trump won in 2016. There were questions about what happened during the campaign though .
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