School demands search of text messaging, outside of school • Hacker News Board

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#81

Post by willcipriano » Sun, Aug 14, 2022, 6:33 AM UTC

mlyle wrote: post #80

willcipriano wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> been shown to be constitutional in appellate courts. So has civil asset forfeiture but that doesn't actually make it constitutional. When a agent of the government wants to search mine or the property of my child, I'm going to make them get a warrant every time. I have nothing to hide, but it's not worth the risk of something being misunderstood or misinterpreted and ending up with consequences from this fishing ex…

> So has civil asset forfeiture but that doesn't actually make it constitutional. I don't feel like semantic arguments. If an agent of the state engages in behavior that appellate courts have declared to be legal, you are unlikely to get redress by reporting this act to the police.

They school won't be able to get into the phone, they will have no choice but to call the police if they want to view the contents. That way my attorney can get involved and ensure the search is conducted properly.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#82

Post by willcipriano » Sun, Aug 14, 2022, 6:59 AM UTC

carom wrote: post #6

ivraatiems wrote: post #3

American schools are so authoritarian, it's no wonder we are having such a problem preserving faith in our system of democracy in the United States. In public schools, the word of unelected random adults is law, the rules are completely arbitrary, students have no right to privacy, no freedom of movement, sometimes not even control over how they dress or who they speak to. If an American public school was a country,…

I almost got kicked out of school over a computer related issue. I refused to admit to it and they threatened to call the police. It honestly would have been preferable as the police have due process. Kids reading this, don't give them a confession, police or school admins, take the 5th. Don't Talk to the Police - https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE They want to take your money or put you in a cage.

I had the same experience. They engage in a lot of puffery but school administrators know they aren't cops. Just say, "I need to talk to my parents" and don't say anything until you can talk with them.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#83

Post by mlyle » Sun, Aug 14, 2022, 7:09 AM UTC

willcipriano wrote: post #81

mlyle wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So has civil asset forfeiture but that doesn't actually make it constitutional. I don't feel like semantic arguments. If an agent of the state engages in behavior that appellate courts have declared to be legal, you are unlikely to get redress by reporting this act to the police.

They school won't be able to get into the phone, they will have no choice but to call the police if they want to view the contents. That way my attorney can get involved and ensure the search is conducted properly.

> they will have no choice but to call the police if they want to view the contents.

The school may be able to impose consequences for refusal to comply.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#84

Post by willcipriano » Sun, Aug 14, 2022, 7:16 AM UTC

mlyle wrote: post #83

willcipriano wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They school won't be able to get into the phone, they will have no choice but to call the police if they want to view the contents. That way my attorney can get involved and ensure the search is conducted properly.

> they will have no choice but to call the police if they want to view the contents. The school may be able to impose consequences for refusal to comply.

Then we will find another school. Complying with tyrants is never a solution.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#85

Post by mlyle » Sun, Aug 14, 2022, 7:18 AM UTC

willcipriano wrote: post #84

mlyle wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they will have no choice but to call the police if they want to view the contents. The school may be able to impose consequences for refusal to comply.

Then we will find another school. Complying with tyrants is never a solution.

K.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#86

Post by dismantlethesun » Sun, Aug 14, 2022, 9:36 AM UTC

mlyle wrote: post #78

UIUC_06 wrote: post #45

Over and above hypotheticals about "they know each other from school" or "it affects the learning environment": School administrations should have less power than they have now, rather than more. If you let them be responsible for kids' actions outside of school, nothing good will come of it. They're not competent to take on that job.

If you make them ignore everything happening outside school between students that have to work together at school, nothing good will come of it, either.

If parents agree then the school can have access, however the default should not be that they can demand access or punish parents for not providing it.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#87

Post by throwoutway » Sun, Aug 14, 2022, 12:39 PM UTC

mlyle wrote: post #78

UIUC_06 wrote: post #45

Over and above hypotheticals about "they know each other from school" or "it affects the learning environment": School administrations should have less power than they have now, rather than more. If you let them be responsible for kids' actions outside of school, nothing good will come of it. They're not competent to take on that job.

If you make them ignore everything happening outside school between students that have to work together at school, nothing good will come of it, either.

There’s a difference between a victim receiving a threatening text and showing it to administration, and the school demanding to see random teenager’s phones to look for potential crimes. If they have a suspicion, get an actual investigative police detective involved.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#88

Post by Dalewyn » Sun, Aug 14, 2022, 1:38 PM UTC

cvoss wrote: post #47

drekk wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What democracy exists in the US? You don't vote for your president. The preferences of the American public have a statistically insignificant effect on which legislative policies get passed. Popular suffrage has existed in the country for ~50 years since indigenous women got the vote. Do I even have to get into what total lack of privacy we enjoy in the "free world"? Come on. I'm tired of Americans comparing anything…

The American conception of democracy does not, by any means, refer to an ability to get the government to carry out the will of 51% of the populace. It is even specifically designed _not_ to do that, on purpose, for very good reasons. Here are some: - 51% of people can do wrong against the other 49%. - 51% of people can do wrong against themselves by making an uninformed decision. - Tomorrow the 51% become the 49% an…

>And yes, the vote for the president is not a raw popular vote. There is a level of indirection through another body that often does, but may not, yield the same result as a popular vote would.

The Electoral College does, in fact, always reflect the popular vote: The popular votes of each respective state.

Critics of the Electoral College fall flat and demonstrate their sheer ignorance because they keep trying to apply the nationwide popular vote when the election for President was never about that.

To explain in more detail for the uninitiated:

A state's Electoral College votes are determined by the state's popular vote, with the winner taking all (except for Oklahoma and Maine which split their EC votes proportionally).

The Electoral College itself is a facsimile of Congress: There are 538 electors because there are 435 Representatives, 100 Senators, and an extra EC-only 2 Senators plus 1 Representative for Washington, D.C..

The Electoral College exists as a means to tally up each state's political will for President in a way that weighs each state's political power appropriately and keep Legislative influence out of an election concerning the Executive. Congress (aka the Legislative) only gets involved in the election if and only if the Electoral College fails to do its job.

Constructive criticism is always welcome, but there are reasons why things are done the way they are. The least anyone can do in the process of criticizing is first understand and respect what they are criticizing.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#89

Post by MerelyMortal » Sun, Aug 14, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

iron2disulfide wrote: post #13

carom wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I almost got kicked out of school over a computer related issue. I refused to admit to it and they threatened to call the police. It honestly would have been preferable as the police have due process. Kids reading this, don't give them a confession, police or school admins, take the 5th. Don't Talk to the Police - https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE They want to take your money or put you in a cage.

I almost got kicked out because I "looked like" someone who had vandalized something or other the day before. They pulled me out of class, called me names, made me sit in their little sad office (thus missing more class) and tried to get me to write a written confession. I refused and they said they would "prosecute me to the full extent of the law". The next day I was exonerated with no explanation given. The two fu…

Police exchange patches with people they work with.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#90

Post by tomrod » Sun, Aug 14, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

mlyle wrote: post #57

tomrod wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is accountable to someone. Escalate where needed.

> > I grew up in a neighborhood where the bully's dad was the police captain. > Everyone is accountable to someone. Escalate where needed. Frankly, this isn't really true-- and shows our immense privilege that we can often act with this assumption and have it come true. Most people don't have this experience. And especially a couple decades ago this was much less true for the type of circumstances we're discussing.

> shows our immense privilege that we can often act with this assumption and have it come true

I take this to mean that you don't believe people are capable of understanding the system in which they live, nor advocating for systemic changes.

This said, I don't see how this tangent ties to addressing the fact that a community leader abuses their presumed power to protect a bullying child. Outside of doing nothing and letting bad behavior happen, one can address tears in the social contract through a variety of escalation approaches. But the key word is to act. I don't think any human system will protect you without your initiative.