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BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

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Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#81

Post by clintonb »

CoffeeOnWrite wrote: post #58
paulgb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can go to the kiosk at any BART station and the station attendant will put a sticker on your card to indicate that you are leaving via the same station you entered and allow you to exit via the emergency doors, therefore not incurring the excursion fare. What if you use the phone app and don't have a physical card with you?

The sticker is just a plain sticker. I would assume they'd let you put it on an alternate surface..

The sticker doesn’t matter. The phone maintains an open “transaction until you swipe it at your destination. It’s not clear what happens if you leave the the station without swiping, and return a few hours/days later. I suspect they still charge you for the excursion fare, or a higher amount.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#82

Post by digianarchist »

danans wrote: post #5

You can go to the kiosk at any BART station and the station attendant will put a sticker on your card to indicate that you are leaving via the same station you entered and allow you to exit via the emergency doors, therefore not incurring the excursion fare. This is in case you decide not to take the train, or forgot something at home. I suspect the excursion fare today is trying to disincentivize the use of the trai…

TTC stations in Toronto will not allow you to enter using Presto at the same station you have already entered. I assume this is to prevent "pass backs" but it also affects those that have entered on the wrong side of certain stations.

The solution in absence of an attendant. Jump the barriers.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#83

Post by Kiala »

In the Netherlands (where I live) most stations have gates. When you check in with ov-chipkaart [1], 10 or 20 euro are debited until you check out and the fare is settled. However, you have 60 minutes to check out at the same station without being charged. Is that so difficult?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OV-chipkaart

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#84

Post by jonny_eh »

sbuttgereit wrote: post #70
adrianmonk wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, it's possible (if unusual) to get value out of traveling within the BART system. For example, suppose you have a nice camera you want to sell to a friend. They live in Millbrae and commute to SF by BART. You live in north San Jose. So you agree to meet them on their way home from work, at 6pm right outside the Powell Street station. That's $16.80 for your Berryessa to Powell Street round trip. But what if you m…

Of course, you're right: it is absolutely feasible that such a valuable trip is possible and happens. You're right that a truly valuable trip is rightfully charged a fare. And finally you're also right that such trips are probably unusual. I would go so far as to say rare. What's much more common than that rare scenario is that, after paying a fare, you get down to the platform only to find that there's a long delay…

It's amazing the lengths people will go to in order to defend an unfair status quo.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#85

Post by jonas21 »

magila wrote: post #37
jonas21 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until recently, BART used magstripe tickets where all information was stored on the ticket itself. It might not have been possible to implement a time window with that. That doesn't explain why they didn't add this when migrating to the Clipper card, but I feel like "nobody thought to change it" or "we wanted to reduce risk by not introducing changes while migrating" seem like more likely explanations than malice.

I wouldn't call it malice. It's simply a rational decision. BART makes more money with the fee than without, so absent political pressure to discontinue it why would they? Also, Clipper cards have been around many years. They aren't a recent addition to BART.

While Clipper cards have been around for a while, it was a very long migration process. BART didn't stop selling the magstripe tickets in vending machines until 2020, and continued to use them for discounted fares through the end of 2021 [1].

[1] https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2021/news20210908

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#86

Post by googlryas »

Psyonic wrote: post #75
googlryas wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could just let you exit normally and not pay any fare if you entered the station less than 8 minutes ago, or whatever would be an amount of time that you couldn't realistically ride somewhere, enjoy another station, and then ride back. Though I guess people would just tap in, tap out immediately but don't exit the turnstiles, then just get on a train and exit through the emergency exit at whatever station you wa…

"Though I guess people would just tap in, tap out immediately but don't exit the turnstiles, then just get on a train and exit through the emergency exit at whatever station you want for free." Sure, or just jump the turnstiles and exist through the emergency exit on the other end, which I already see people do frequently.

Sure, but jumping the turnstiles is clearly ipso facto breaking the rules. Re-tapping where you entered but not exiting immediately could be explained away. I bet far more people would cheat if they only had to tap to exit and not exit, versus jumping turnstiles.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#87

Post by panarky »

magila wrote: post #37
jonas21 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until recently, BART used magstripe tickets where all information was stored on the ticket itself. It might not have been possible to implement a time window with that. That doesn't explain why they didn't add this when migrating to the Clipper card, but I feel like "nobody thought to change it" or "we wanted to reduce risk by not introducing changes while migrating" seem like more likely explanations than malice.

I wouldn't call it malice. It's simply a rational decision. BART makes more money with the fee than without, so absent political pressure to discontinue it why would they? Also, Clipper cards have been around many years. They aren't a recent addition to BART.

A decision that increases revenue X dollars is not rational if it also increases costs 10X to deal with customer complaints and bad publicity.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#88

Post by HaloZero »

Janice Li on the BART Board at least is down for removing the fee. Though it might have to wait for 2023 for Clipper 2.0? No idea why.

https://twitter.com/JaniceForBART/status/1555034168962138112

Rebecca Saltzman (another BART board member) says it's technical execution that prevents the change more so than the board.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#89

Post by sowbug »

tedunangst wrote: post #51
sowbug wrote: post #45

When I was a kid and tried to figure out why this fare/penalty existed, I guessed it was to compensate for people who traveled somewhere to pick up an item from a friend who'd meet them at the station and hand it through the gate to them, and then they'd go back home, all without leaving the station. It all seemed like an intricate solution to a small problem.

What makes it intricate? There's a big table of station x station fares. Filling the diagonal with $6 is no more complicated than filling it with $0.

You're thinking from an implementor's perspective. From the customer's perspective, it's a weird nonlinear pricing model that charges you more to be taken a shorter distance. Honest people who forgot their keys at home or whatever and need to run back home have to deal with the nonlinearity.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#90

Post by underwater »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #28
CoffeeOnWrite wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re correct. When you try to enter next the turnstile will error out with “see agent”. That’s when they fix your card and peel the sticker off. Which highlights the total ridiculousness: they’re asking riders to see an agent twice!

> they’re asking riders to see an agent twice Even worse: they're asking NON-riders to see an agent twice

Ergo, affected passengers need to see infinite number of agents for each trip taken.
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