I'm experiencing this now and it's taking some energy to not become disillusioned with the industry. Generalists, or people with a "wide T", are also a lot less valuable than specialists. For any given technology or stack right now, some company out there is doing something cool with it, and they only want to hire people who are already familiar with their particular configuration. The couple of tech interviews I've…
Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience
81–90 of 215 posts
Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience
#82I work for a non-tech company as a solo full stack dev. I have been able to interview with fortune 500 companies and get offers. I have been getting contacted by recruiters from hot startups, Microsoft, Google, AWS, Amazon and Meta. I am not sure if I'm stupid but I really don't know how "no experience" can be better than wrong experience. There is always things you learn, better negotiation tactics, your value to a…
As I read that thread, an engineer--possibly just out of a good school--who does well on interviews is perhaps assumed to be a good hire even though they don't have much experience. (Though maybe they did an interesting project or two.) On the other hand an engineer who took a job out of school in the IT department of some (perceived) boring stodgy company even if they really aren't (Walmart was mentioned) obviously…
I believe you mean Walgreens (in patio11's original thread).
Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience
#83I can tell you this is 110% true in my case. I graduated and landed a very shitty testing job at a big consulting firm. I worked hard like a mule( more like a donkey ) for 11 months. Then one day I woke up in the middle of the night and screamed into the pillow that I rather kill myself then do my job. I resigned the next month. Fucked around for a few months, got interested in making backend apps and started applyin…
That same experience will be a boon later. You can show your progression from QA > Dev > Whatever you want. It's no longer an anchor weighing you down, it's a Rocky Balboa underdog story.
Although it may be true of the specific person you're replying to (though I'm not sure that it is), this presumes something, so ends up missing the point. To see the point made here about luck, castes, et cetera requires grappling with the existence of folks who were developers before taking the "shitty testing job". There is no QA-to-dev progression there—just someone without the good fortune to be able to say "no" to the first job they were offered.
A recent guest on Tyler Cowen's podcast made this point wrt to law school graduates:
> The bigger thing I would change is the calendar for professional hiring in law. This is a little bit esoteric, but it matters a lot to our students. If you want to go into a job at a major law firm, and you go to a good law school, those jobs get offered to you at a time when you have no other alternatives. And so, regardless of one’s individual preferences, it makes no sense to turn down those jobs when you actually have no alternative.¶ I think that creates a lot of distortions, where you end up with people who are at these firms who don’t want to be there. And it biases the market so that people who want to go into public interest, for example, are the ones who are able to take that risk on, which is not a very good match between who’s genuinely interested in alternative avenues and who just can’t afford to take certain kinds of risks.
https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/jamal-greene/>
Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
As I read that thread, an engineer--possibly just out of a good school--who does well on interviews is perhaps assumed to be a good hire even though they don't have much experience. (Though maybe they did an interesting project or two.) On the other hand an engineer who took a job out of school in the IT department of some (perceived) boring stodgy company even if they really aren't (Walmart was mentioned) obviously…
> Walmart was mentioned I believe you mean Walgreens (in patio11's original thread).
Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
> you have to make big decisions early on about what you're most interested in and then pursue a deep specialization in it I am seeing similar trends to you wrt Generalists, and this is annoying but good advice. Even when hired, generalists tend to get stuck with all the most tedious work from every department that simply no one wants to do. You end up being a one-stop shop for all intern and junior related work, wit…
generalists tend to get stuck with all the most tedious work from every department that simply no one wants to do someone has to do it, and if the pay is adequate, it's a matter of attitude. not getting credit (appropriate $ compensation) for your influence i don't understand this part. you already have your salary, as negotiated. are you saying that such a positions are always underpaid? and if such a position reall…
Generalism is more difficult than specialism to leverage in that initial notification. And if you end up doing work that's spread across multiple departments then it's generally harder to advance within that organisation.
Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
> you have to make big decisions early on about what you're most interested in and then pursue a deep specialization in it I am seeing similar trends to you wrt Generalists, and this is annoying but good advice. Even when hired, generalists tend to get stuck with all the most tedious work from every department that simply no one wants to do. You end up being a one-stop shop for all intern and junior related work, wit…
generalists tend to get stuck with all the most tedious work from every department that simply no one wants to do someone has to do it, and if the pay is adequate, it's a matter of attitude. not getting credit (appropriate $ compensation) for your influence i don't understand this part. you already have your salary, as negotiated. are you saying that such a positions are always underpaid? and if such a position reall…
>someone has to do it, and if the pay is adequate, it's a matter of attitude.
the pay is adequate for the value of the work (which is low), and it eats up your time which actually lowers the average value of your work to the company. it isnt anything other people cant do, it's just the stuff that piles up because it isnt really critical to get done but should still get done. think about what you would have a coworker help you with at your job if you had a lot to do and they asked you if you needed help with anything.
>are you saying that such a positions are always underpaid?
Yes they are underpaid because the job responsibilities are usually pretty fuzzy. you are typically given some basic responsibilities but then expected to find more work to do yourself via talking to people. so its on you to both find valuable work to perform using your general knowledge (kind of fun / interesting tbh) and also somehow be convincing that your contributions are better than what they would have gotten from an average generalist (nigh impossible). It becomes very hard to get people to recognize you going above and beyond, which is necessary for raises. So you are very dependent on having an incredibly observant manager who applies above average attention to detail when reviewing you.
how you get this work as a generalist, btw, is you ask people what they need help with. It isnt an issue with attitude, it is just one of relevance. An average generalist can be fine with this, but if you are above average at multiple roles then it becomes a point of opportunity cost. you will never work on the high-value things that someone else more specialized at the company is capable of working on. you will work on the things that were preventing that person from spending more time on the high-value things. they might talk to you about it and you might give them thoughts on the work, but it will be so casual as to be awkward for them to give you any credit for it.
>if such a position really has influence, it actually sounds appealing to me
It can be a very enjoyable position BUT you stall out - it will typically fall under some sort of generic business analyst job title at a small to mid-size company (ie not at a company with an analytics department for you to advance in). youll be encouraged to "build" that department by yourself, in your downtime, without any approved budget for it, without adding anything to anyone elses processes (ie requiring them to stick to a data entry format). So people at the company will typically like you, but you'll hit a lot of resistance trying to get past like $70k (near NYC). It makes me think that 1 good generalist is valued close to but beneath 2 junior employees with a bit of different specialization each.
the only way I can recommend a generalist position is if you are buying significant amount of stock in the company, fully believe in the product/service, and understand that sometimes in order for a team to do its best there needs to be a thankless support player somewhere in there.
you dont have noticeable influence, btw, you just know what you did and feel personally good about it. you get to sit in on meetings, typically as a note-taker (because you offered to and it makes sense because you have a bunch of misc responsibilities anyway), which means you get to make sure the most important things from a meeting are emphasized, questionable things are highlighted, and you can speak up in the meeting itself to help address misalignment's before they happen. the meetings themselves tend to get credit for your contribution rather than you, albeit sometimes you can make pretty direct call-outs that will get you credit for.
the general vibe was kind of like, you are an alert system and garbage collector. a lot of the time the alerts are received as helpful reminders of issues that would have been caught somehow anyway. but that's kind of a catch-22 for proving your value. you feel fairly confident they wouldnt have caught the issue based on the nature of the due diligence you applied to the situation and your intimate knowledge of the related business operations. you cant exactly point why you think the issue would have gone unnoticed without throwing someone under the bus, which isnt fair to do before the issue actually arises. the catch-22 is that the issue isnt going to arise because you pointed it out, but you cant prove it was necessary for you to point it out unless you dont point it out.
So you need an observant, reasonably skeptical manager on the same page as you to notice the shitstorms you prevent. But even then there's typically no direct means of compensating you for it. you get labelled a good employee, quickly jump to that 70k area pay cap into yearly inflation adjustments, then you end up just getting more soft benefits like openness to alternative work hours, no resistance to taking time off, and such. With the caveat that you have to correctly read the room on these things and assert them yourself because you wont be getting an email detailing such perks. that is all well and good, but it seems better fit for someone near retirement then someone with goals of trying to buy a house and raise a family.
Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience
#87I generally enjoy Dan Luu’s advice, but IMO it’s best approached with the understanding that his professional and social network is somewhat of a bubble that doesn’t reflect the average person. Specifically, he cites a statistic that 50% of the people with “no experience” he knows are getting ML and other such jobs at Big Tech companies. In this case, I think he’s likely pre-filtering his sample set to people with si…
Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience
#88I work for a non-tech company as a solo full stack dev. I have been able to interview with fortune 500 companies and get offers. I have been getting contacted by recruiters from hot startups, Microsoft, Google, AWS, Amazon and Meta. I am not sure if I'm stupid but I really don't know how "no experience" can be better than wrong experience. There is always things you learn, better negotiation tactics, your value to a…
He's saying that some people will judge you for working in less prestigious places. He's explicitly condemning that but saying it still happens.
Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience
#89It is definitely true for the most part. I took a software engineering job in A software firm that’s considered on of the OG Silicon Valley company after I graduated. Unfortunately, I very quickly realized that whenever I applied to FAANG or other “SV cool kids” companies, I would not get an opportunity, meanwhile, new grads from my same Uni kept getting those jobs. You don’t get interviews because you work at a non…
What should a new grad do to avoid starting at the wrong company? Stay unemployed?
But basically, go somewhere that isn't a black mark on your resume. I mean, there are obvious companies like Veritas, IBM, Symantec, Oracle, Cisco, HP (not Aruba), PornHub, ... which should be avoided because they have, for good or for bad, poor reputations for the junior candidates coming out of them (senior is quite a bit better - if they still code, which you have to watch out for). Anonymous startup (not crypto) probably a better choice, plus you will learn more.
Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience
#90I can tell you this is 110% true in my case. I graduated and landed a very shitty testing job at a big consulting firm. I worked hard like a mule( more like a donkey ) for 11 months. Then one day I woke up in the middle of the night and screamed into the pillow that I rather kill myself then do my job. I resigned the next month. Fucked around for a few months, got interested in making backend apps and started applyin…
Honestly, I have always felt really bad about hiring someone into a QA role. It is almost always a trap and I try to discourage people from going down that path for exactly the reasons you describe.
I am glad you've gotten past it. Excellent. Good luck to you.