Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired • Hacker News Board

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#81

Post by prostoalex » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:39 PM UTC

kls wrote: post #72

Androsynth wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they have a legal footing to stand on? The way I read it is: 'We consider you overpaid for the job you are doing and we no longer wish to keep you around at that compensation level'. That is a valid reason to fire someone in CA isn't it?

IT is not a valid reason to reclaim unvested stock, those are looked at like current compensation when termination is unjust. You cant terminate someone just to unvest them. That being said, I always draw a line through and contract that says that I loose vesting on termination, and change it to all options become instantly vested on termination. IF they want to negotiate as to when the options will be awarded to ens…

contract that says that I loose vesting on termination, and change it to all options become instantly vested on termination

Curious which companies do that. Are you talking about 83(b) election, or were you really able to convince companies to instantly vest upon termination?

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#82

Post by betterlabs » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:39 PM UTC

wavephorm wrote: post #7

With the unvested shares, the executives believed they could attract more top talent with the promise of stock. Not anymore they won't.

I couldn't agree more. Even if we assume there is a justifiable reason or perhaps its happening only to employees who have not performed (which I doubt can be the case considering those employees could not have lasted this long any way), this probably has done irreparable damage to their reputation in the eyes of current and prospective employees. I hope all this bad PR makes them reconsider it, if not anything else.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#83

Post by api » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:40 PM UTC

exit wrote: post #60

developers should blacklist companies like this. sort of an informal union. with the right personalities behind it we could do serious damage to the sleazy conniving wheeler-dealers who pull this shit.

And you'd instantly be sued for libel, slander, and tortious interference with business relations.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#84

Post by run4yourlives » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:40 PM UTC

Interesting to note that in Canada, this would fall under "constructive dismissal" and would mean that Zynga would be liable to pay the same severance as they would if they just decided to lay people off. Legally - 1 week's pay for every year of service, plus whatever the court thinks is fair.

Altering an existing contract and threatening to terminate said contract if the new terms aren't agreed to is a really assholish thing to do, to be honest.

If Zynga employees were smart, they'd band together and threaten to quit - immediately, with no notice - en masse. You need to negotiate from whatever positions of strength you can obtain.

Either way though the company has now been poisoned beyond repair... good luck attracting any top talent from this point forward.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#85

Post by hello_moto » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:40 PM UTC

api wrote: post #53

pavel_lishin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be willing to do an anonymous AMA, or write up some of your experiences?

I'll do a quick summary. Episode 1: (this is the one that most directly affected me) I was working on a very interesting but somewhat far-off technology. I did some tech talks about it, and put them on Google Video. Was approached by a guy who said he was a wealthy early-stage technology investor. He showed me a lot of stuff that indicated that this was the case, had a lot of real people vouching for him, etc. He mad…

Took me only 1 startup right after school to realize that the whole startup thing is rigged.

Never looked back unless it's my own startup.

It doesn't matter what they teach in business school. Most of the people I knew who took business majors (Commerce, Accounting, etc) are developing into "business assholes" slowly during their college years (.e.g: borrowing/copying your assignments, taking credits in group works, lying about their skills, boasting their knowledge, etc).

What do you expect? most of them are training for the real-world. They know what's going on out there. They went to seminars or talks given by those whom they deemed to be successful (ex-students working in KPMG, PwC, etc). They studied how these "successful" ex-students talk, present, think, etc. What are the odds they'll develop to become one of them really quick?

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#86

Post by johngalt » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:41 PM UTC

joshAg wrote: post #54

mmaunder wrote: post #33

Sometimes you just have to sue to enforce a contract and your rights. Many employees either don't realize this or they don't have the stomach for it. If you find yourself in this position, my advice is to play the game and see it through. 1. Don't resign, don't capitulate and hire a good lawyer immediately. If you don't have the cashflow, but are defending a huge pile of stock about to IPO you'll probably find a lawy…

as an executive, do you think that zynga's executive team gave any thought to the bad press this might generate and the talent that this might scare away? From my perspective, this sort of thing scares me away from companies, because they might do it again in the future.

It's not like Zynga will have another IPO in the future, or will need to promise future employees equity.

Precisely why "trust" should never be a part of an equity negotiation. When millions are on the table people will do whatever they can get away with. Zynga doesn't want another "google chef", but they took full advantage of the "google chef" when promising equity to early employees.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#87

Post by simon » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:42 PM UTC

api wrote: post #53

pavel_lishin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be willing to do an anonymous AMA, or write up some of your experiences?

I'll do a quick summary. Episode 1: (this is the one that most directly affected me) I was working on a very interesting but somewhat far-off technology. I did some tech talks about it, and put them on Google Video. Was approached by a guy who said he was a wealthy early-stage technology investor. He showed me a lot of stuff that indicated that this was the case, had a lot of real people vouching for him, etc. He mad…

Worked at a place that shall not be named, back before startups were hip and trendy. They had received capital funding from a local collective of business folks. Lots of bad use of the money and telling investors versions of the truth.

I remember one time, the big boss was showing an investor around and brought them back to the IT area. I was third man in the company, but first one with no shares, so I was completely ignored. The big boss points towards a good-sized computer cabinet and tells them that's the production system. Not so much ... the production system was under my desk as we hadn't ported the system over to the big fancy box yet. No big lies, but just a constant stream of embellishments and reasons why the lack of success was everyone else's fault.

Don't know that he learned it at business school, although he did have an MBA, but he was also a Chicago banker. No telling what counts as legitimate business activity inside the loop.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#88

Post by api » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:42 PM UTC

egor83 wrote: post #77

api wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll do a quick summary. Episode 1: (this is the one that most directly affected me) I was working on a very interesting but somewhat far-off technology. I did some tech talks about it, and put them on Google Video. Was approached by a guy who said he was a wealthy early-stage technology investor. He showed me a lot of stuff that indicated that this was the case, had a lot of real people vouching for him, etc. He mad…

> We do some investigation and find out that this guy's name is on over a dozen defunct LLCs. > we come to find out that he'd been sued multiple times by previous partners Is there a way to find out about this in advance? Some kind of database to check who you deal with prior to starting business with them?

Some of this stuff is public info. The head of our firm should have probably done more checking. But there are limits, of course, and it's a pain and can be expensive.

A database of the sort that you suggest is prohibited by libel and slander laws. You'd instantly be sued. While libel and slander laws serve useful purposes, they also serve to prevent people from warning each other about predators.

If you say "hey, this person is a predator, this is what they did to me and and I have proof," you can be sued. Sure, you might win. But if you're not rich, you can't defend yourself.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#89

Post by Androsynth » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:43 PM UTC

kls wrote: post #72

Androsynth wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they have a legal footing to stand on? The way I read it is: 'We consider you overpaid for the job you are doing and we no longer wish to keep you around at that compensation level'. That is a valid reason to fire someone in CA isn't it?

IT is not a valid reason to reclaim unvested stock, those are looked at like current compensation when termination is unjust. You cant terminate someone just to unvest them. That being said, I always draw a line through and contract that says that I loose vesting on termination, and change it to all options become instantly vested on termination. IF they want to negotiate as to when the options will be awarded to ens…

They're being terminated because they are not contributing relative to the amount they are being compensated. That seems to be perfectly legal to me (although it will probably hurt them in the long run).

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#90

Post by alexwolfe » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 6:43 PM UTC

api wrote: post #83

exit wrote: post #60

developers should blacklist companies like this. sort of an informal union. with the right personalities behind it we could do serious damage to the sleazy conniving wheeler-dealers who pull this shit.

And you'd instantly be sued for libel, slander, and tortious interference with business relations.

Last time I checked, Unions were legal. For that matter not liking a company is legal too. Not wanting to work for someone, also legal. My friend not wanting to work for someone I don't like, also legal. Not liking a companies policies, ummm also legal.