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High property taxes are good

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Re: High property taxes are good

#81

Post by chadash »

vanilla_nut wrote: post #2

In my region of northern New Hampshire, there are a lot of retired folks with houses rising from $200k-ish values to closer to $500k-ish values in the last 5-10 years. As such, there's a lot of discussion around lowering property taxes to help these retirees. In my opinion? Fuck 'em. Property taxes are a brilliant method of perfectly progressive taxation: you can always choose to live in a cheaper home. If your home…

> You can always choose to live in a cheaper home.

So your 90 year old grandpa has been living in a two bedroom apartment on the lower east side for 65 years. When he moved in at age 25, it was considered a crummy but affordable neighborhood, but now it's expensive and desirable. You want a 90 year old to have to move? I agree that maybe a 65 year old couple no longer needs to be in a 3,000 square foot home, but there are a lot of cases that make this complicated.

Re: High property taxes are good

#82

Post by zip1234 »

havblue wrote: post #17
cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #6

Land value taxes are even better. Property taxes provide a disincentive to making the land more productive. A land value tax would incentivize residential landowners to build more units which provides more supply and would lower rents.

This would certainly impact people with older houses disproportionately relative to the wealthier folks doing the teardowns, though. Probably a political downside.

Where they implement such taxes, people with homes often get lower taxes because the tax on vacant or underutilized properties makes up for it.

Re: High property taxes are good

#83

Post by yellowapple »

Dracophoenix wrote: post #58
cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #6

Land value taxes are even better. Property taxes provide a disincentive to making the land more productive. A land value tax would incentivize residential landowners to build more units which provides more supply and would lower rents.

What's the difference between the two in reality? Theoretically, with a land value tax, "improvements" (however that's defined) aren't added to the final tax calculation. However better-looking homes are then a signal that drive up demand for (and therefore price of) land so ultimately it seems LVT does punish improvements if only indirectly.

> What's the difference between the two in reality?

One taxes the land and the building(s) on it. The other only taxes the former.

In practice, this means that while property taxes and land value taxes both penalize speculation, LVTs more precisely do so, without the side effect property taxes have of penalizing construction.

> However better-looking homes are then a signal that drive up demand for (and therefore price of) land so ultimately it seems LVT does punish improvements if only indirectly.

Even assuming that effect does happen, it'd be considerably worse under a property tax.

Re: High property taxes are good

#84

Post by honkycat »

avgDev wrote: post #55
justinzollars wrote: post #47

This community is deranged. All forms of taxation are messed up, the funds end up in grifters pockets, funding wars, or in black holes. The last place I want my money is in a politicians pocket. But this community overwhelmingly supports this concept. If a slave is taxed at 100% and an indentured servant is taxed at 20% - what does that make you?

So, what is your solution for building infrastructure? Funding the military? Social programs? Snow removal? Libraries? Education?

Or producing meat, or maintaining prisons, or building security critical CPUs, or funding medical research...

These people think the market exists, but really we just have a fucked-up version of socialism that privatizes the profits while subsidizing the risk. It supports toxic industries while fucking everyone else over.

In this case, particularly talking about agriculture and the prison industrial complex... or the huge scam with the covid loans where they just used the money for stock buybacks.

Re: High property taxes are good

#85

Post by lief79 »

kashkhan wrote: post #37
cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #6

Land value taxes are even better. Property taxes provide a disincentive to making the land more productive. A land value tax would incentivize residential landowners to build more units which provides more supply and would lower rents.

property taxes are terrible for old people. you should be able to buy a reasonable amount of land tax free. USA has about 2.5 billion acres. 1/4 acre per person in an average area tax free is reasonable.

Fairly sure this is to increase population density in the area, so selling old homes for tear downs would be a net gain.

The more reasonable approach to this would be discounts for the primary residence, and possibly discounts for populated units, depending on if you are targeting home owners / overall population and housing cost.

Quarter acre per family might make sense across the US as a whole with large swathes of empty land across the middle, but it makes no sense if you look at the average individual given the percentage of the country living in urban areas.

Re: High property taxes are good

#86

Post by lettergram »

vanilla_nut wrote: post #2

In my region of northern New Hampshire, there are a lot of retired folks with houses rising from $200k-ish values to closer to $500k-ish values in the last 5-10 years. As such, there's a lot of discussion around lowering property taxes to help these retirees. In my opinion? Fuck 'em. Property taxes are a brilliant method of perfectly progressive taxation: you can always choose to live in a cheaper home. If your home…

Almost anyone can afford property… provided you’re willing to move.

I’m where I live it costs $40-$50k / acre up to $150k / acre. 30 min away it’s $3-4k / acre.

I personally am opposed to property taxes. I think it basically implies rent of the land. Then again, I’m basically opposed to all taxes except tariffs and perhaps licensing fees.

For instance, you could implement a licensing fee to use the public roads. Or add a tax on import / export of goods across the protected border(s). But beyond that I view all taxes as far too intrusive. Why should my land be assessed? Why should I provide any details to the government so they can tax me? The “government” is infact my “neighbors” and I simply don’t think it’s their business what my assets are.

Re: High property taxes are good

#87

Post by dwater »

kashkhan wrote: post #37
cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #6

Land value taxes are even better. Property taxes provide a disincentive to making the land more productive. A land value tax would incentivize residential landowners to build more units which provides more supply and would lower rents.

property taxes are terrible for old people. you should be able to buy a reasonable amount of land tax free. USA has about 2.5 billion acres. 1/4 acre per person in an average area tax free is reasonable.

The way people in the US plan for old age and retirement, and the way they are treated by society, is terrible and property taxes are aspect of that. But the only way you should be able to own land tax free is if there are no government services provided on that land. No utilities, no public road, no emergency services, no municipal services. I don't know of anywhere in the US where that is an option. Unless you're saying you want that funding to come from a different source, which would mean a total restructuring of the tax system in the majority of localities.

Re: High property taxes are good

#88

Post by zip1234 »

beefman wrote: post #38
kspacewalk2 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>separating the value of land and improvements is practically impossible. is routinely done in countries in which variants of land value tax are implemented.

It's routinely done in appraisals where I live too. Doesn't mean it's in any way accurate, as required to make the mechanism in the grandparent comment work.

Valuing a building+land is already done and used for property tax purposes. Why do you think it would be worse or less accurate to just remove building part?

Re: High property taxes are good

#89

Post by zip1234 »

beefman wrote: post #80
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> gives a value for the lot far lower than the actual market price of an empty lot in this location Retrofitting or tearing down a house in California is expensive. Particularly if it's an old house where there could be e.g. lead or asbestos. Clean lots (presuming it wasn't previously a laundromat) command a value from the baggage they clearly don't bring.

There's no teardown required here. Developing an empty lot and selling the result will lose you a $1M+ in my town. Spec home development ceased here in 2019.

What area is this? Are homes being built anywhere in the area?

Re: High property taxes are good

#90

Post by jeffbee »

I have nothing against property taxes and I think they are good and should be higher - as the article says, the price of the houses stays the same and the government gets a bigger cut at the expense of land speculators. That's a good thing.

However the arguments feels defective because it uses Chicago as an example. Surely the reason housing is plentiful and affordable in that city is because it has been slowly depopulating for decades and it currently only 75% as populous as it was at its peak.

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