Half of China's millionaires want to leave country • Hacker News Board

Re: Half of China's millionaires want to leave country

#81

Post by Volpe » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 2:20 AM UTC

tomkarlo wrote: post #79

Volpe wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political stability is not a strong point in china?

On the order of a lifetime (50-60 years)? No. Especially given that you have an incumbent political party that is (at least in name), still Communist and committed to the equitable distribution of wealth across the population. China has a lot of internal tensions, not the least of which is that as people become more affluent, they start to want greater transparency from the government, greater fairness, and more inde…

I'm not convinced it is "grappling to maintain order". It really doesn't operate that different from the U.S:

- censorship (like wikileaks) - Suppression of dissent (like the 'Occupy movement' is being suppressed).

Governments (regardless of ideology) try to avoid dissent, as it's damaging to those in power...

Re: Half of China's millionaires want to leave country

#82

Post by jhancock » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 2:20 AM UTC

cma wrote: post #72

espeed wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless if its billionaires in yuan or dollars, if there is a sentiment in China that the wealthy are being killed, it could fuel the desire to leave.

There is a death penalty in China for trying to form a labor union (and people said American labor unions opposed "free trade" agreements with China out of pure selfishness...). Anyway, there's a complex mix of people in China afraid of being killed.

Really? Can you point to a death penalty being applied for such a case? I'm not saying your wrong, but its the first I've heard of such thing. I have seen cases where the PRC has protected the rights of workers to form unions. Of course, these unions are through the government.

Re: Half of China's millionaires want to leave country

#83

Post by tomkarlo » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 2:45 AM UTC

Volpe wrote: post #81

tomkarlo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the order of a lifetime (50-60 years)? No. Especially given that you have an incumbent political party that is (at least in name), still Communist and committed to the equitable distribution of wealth across the population. China has a lot of internal tensions, not the least of which is that as people become more affluent, they start to want greater transparency from the government, greater fairness, and more inde…

I'm not convinced it is "grappling to maintain order". It really doesn't operate that different from the U.S: - censorship (like wikileaks) - Suppression of dissent (like the 'Occupy movement' is being suppressed). Governments (regardless of ideology) try to avoid dissent, as it's damaging to those in power...

When was the last time you worried about going to prison before you posted a tweet?

Re: Half of China's millionaires want to leave country

#84

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 3:05 AM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #34

rue wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the sake of accuracy, China's had little to do with communism for decades now.

China's had little to do with communism for decades now. Your statement is both true and unfitting to the thread here. The truth is that the current governing policies of the Communist Party of China (CPC) are not doctrinaire communism, in the Marxist-Leninist sense, but rather "socialism with Chinese characteristics," as that party officially labels those policies. But the key political point, and the key motivation…

[deleted]

Re: Half of China's millionaires want to leave country

#85

Post by derleth » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 4:00 AM UTC

Tsagadai wrote: post #76

folkster wrote: post #13

Money can buy you bigger houses, fancy clothes, new cars. But it can't buy you freedom, in China. That's why the millionaires leave, to be free.

China is quite free compared to most western countries. If you have money you are pretty much free to do as you please as long as you keep your head down. There are two types of crimes in China crimes that get you put away forever or executed and crimes that you just pay the officer for. Every regulation in China is basically a tax, you pay someone and it is solved.

That is a kind of freedom, perhaps, but it isn't liberty. China is notoriously short on liberty.

Re: Half of China's millionaires want to leave country

#86

Post by hachiya » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 4:03 AM UTC

angkec wrote: post #66

This may add more insight: I'm Chinese (mainlander) myself and I'm not rich (student). All my friends are not rich either. Yet almost everyone wants to leave the country. This is probably due to high real estate prices (around 1M RMB in large cities like Beijing and Shanghai for a decent apartment that can get you a girl to marry you, yet you don't really "own" the property even if you buy it. Technically the state s…

The one child policy of China is pure evil. It's a wonder the forced abortions and these effects don't feature more prominently in this discussion.

Re: Half of China's millionaires want to leave country

#87

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 4:28 AM UTC

buss wrote: post #37

wisty wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd expect a number of extremely rich Chinese oligarchs have been shot for treason, as some forms of corruption are punishable by the death penalty. There's a lot of really nasty shit that happens in China. Babies dying from additives to their milk formula, organs being stolen, farmers being driven off communes to build illegal factories, outright theft of government funds and property ... none of it is really sancti…

Right, I think most of these deaths are due to corruption charges. One of the many weird things about China is that corruption is officially illegal, punishable by death, and yet every powerful business person or government official is corrupt by the letter of the law (favors for family, accepting bribes, favoring business that give them money). It's just the way their society has been for a long time. It's such a da…

[deleted]

Re: Half of China's millionaires want to leave country

#88

Post by Volpe » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 4:58 AM UTC

tomkarlo wrote: post #83

Volpe wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced it is "grappling to maintain order". It really doesn't operate that different from the U.S: - censorship (like wikileaks) - Suppression of dissent (like the 'Occupy movement' is being suppressed). Governments (regardless of ideology) try to avoid dissent, as it's damaging to those in power...

When was the last time you worried about going to prison before you posted a tweet?

I'm pretty sure Julian Assange is facing this exact problem. When you challenge authority... the results are predictable (regardless of the ideology behind the authority).

Also note: Most chinese (i'd say) don't worry about this. So the point is a little over dramatic.

Re: Half of China's millionaires want to leave country

#89

Post by Selvik » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 5:01 AM UTC

jhancock wrote: post #82

cma wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a death penalty in China for trying to form a labor union (and people said American labor unions opposed "free trade" agreements with China out of pure selfishness...). Anyway, there's a complex mix of people in China afraid of being killed.

Really? Can you point to a death penalty being applied for such a case? I'm not saying your wrong, but its the first I've heard of such thing. I have seen cases where the PRC has protected the rights of workers to form unions. Of course, these unions are through the government.

There's a de facto death penalty for being sufficiently troublesome. I'm not sure whether a do-not-try-to-start-an-independent-labor-union law is actually on the books or not.

Re: Half of China's millionaires want to leave country

#90

Post by Volpe » Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 5:03 AM UTC

Volpe wrote: post #81

tomkarlo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the order of a lifetime (50-60 years)? No. Especially given that you have an incumbent political party that is (at least in name), still Communist and committed to the equitable distribution of wealth across the population. China has a lot of internal tensions, not the least of which is that as people become more affluent, they start to want greater transparency from the government, greater fairness, and more inde…

I'm not convinced it is "grappling to maintain order". It really doesn't operate that different from the U.S: - censorship (like wikileaks) - Suppression of dissent (like the 'Occupy movement' is being suppressed). Governments (regardless of ideology) try to avoid dissent, as it's damaging to those in power...

What are the down votes for?

Some one care to enlighten me how the censorship of wikileaks is any different to the great fire wall? (Slightly different scale, but they both illustrate censorship).

Or the suppression the of the Occupy Movement is different from the concept of "suppression of dissent". That is the forcible removal of people with views the government doesn't want to hear.

I haven't even mention the Patriot Act and how it has been exploited...

Rocks and glasshouses...