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Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

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81–90 of 226 posts

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#81
post #8

I never understood how the IA can get away with copying all those websites and all their content as if copyright did not exist. Can anybody enlighten me how they have not been sued into oblivion and sit in prison already?

To me it seems pretty reasonable. That content is available on public internet. And they even give perfect citations. That is timestamp and address, plus all the information on the page.

If people don't want their content in such place they can always place it behind login-wall.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#82
post #8

I never understood how the IA can get away with copying all those websites and all their content as if copyright did not exist. Can anybody enlighten me how they have not been sued into oblivion and sit in prison already?

I had listened and downloaded full music albums from the Archive. Don't know why is possible.

Or outright warez content... Yeah, I don't know why anyone would think that should pass...

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#83
post #6

So...they didn't think the law should apply so they just decided to ignore it? What were they expecting? How can they possibly expect to win this lawsuit? I hate copyright with all my soul but this is just stupid. You can't just decide to take the law into your own hand. This is just a waste of money and effort.

I thought about this in the past and I think a reasonable expectation is for this to go to court some day and drive it all the way up to the respective supreme court and make a significant change in copyright law. It's practically the only way to execute on their given, important mission. Whether it's reasonable is a different matter, but now they have a real chance to make a even bigger impact than they already have.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#84
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders. At the end of the day, The Internet Archive has good intentions and is morally in the right. The time has come to consider changing the laws to allow for truly fair use, especially for physical items scanned to digital (e.g. books), old video games, and more. It's about selecting for the common good over the…

> The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders That genuinely may be so, but "this law i broke shouldn't exist" is not an advisable legal defense. Also, what you call "rent seeking" others would call "return on investment". I do think there is a grey area here, "fair use" being one example, but i think summarily discounting distributors and publishers wh…

> "this law i broke shouldn't exist" is not an advisable legal defense.

That depends entirely on the level of support for the defense, and is precisely the only way unjust laws ever change.

> i think summarily discounting distributors and publishers wholesale doesn't help your stance

I don't think anyone's discounting anyone here: there's a big difference between discounting and challenging.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#85

This is pretty much why I stopped donating to them, not like they'll miss the sporadic $50 they'd get from me. Getting sued is a pretty obvious result of their decision to ignore copyright laws. If they didn't realize that they'd be sued then they're hopelessly shortsighted (there's no "emergency" exemption to copyright laws, even if you can make the argument that morally there should be). If they did know that they'…

It doesn't seem as cut and dry as you make it seem. Archival institutions are allowed to make digitized copies of legitimately owned works, and to allow access to that copy on their own "premises". In the case of an organization like the internet archive which does not have physical premises, would you accept the argument that their 'premises' is the internet? The question that they want answered is: where exactly is…

>They weren't just handing out unlimited copies of books.

I don't think that's accurate. This lawsuit didn't happen until they stopped enforcing the constraint that (# of concurrent digital loans) ≤ (# of physical copies IA and their partner libraries have). Thats very different from a regular library, where the number of copies they loan out can't exceed the number of copies they physically posses (or ebook licenses they have, which is a whole nother rabbithole).

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#86

It's disappointing to hear, with the number of people here claiming how IA has run afoul of the copyright law, that it's an open-and-shut case and there is nothing more to discuss. I feel like the air of the hacker spirit on the website is greatly diminished when we take an ice-cold approach to a difficult problem like this. I for one commend them for doing a noble thing in a very turbulent time. We didn't know how t…

> I feel like the air of the hacker spirit on the website is greatly diminished when we take an ice-cold approach to a difficult problem like this. That “hacker spirit” has put years of extremely valuable internet archives at risk for an extremely insignificant gain, all due to a legal issue that anyone could see coming from a mile away. Hacker spirit and playing fast and loose with the rules might fly when you’re a…

Indeed. They could have easily isolated themselves from the fall out if they wanted to make a point about the law.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#87
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might not be widely known, but they have in the past had copies of the Archive in Alexandria and other locations. From my brief time there, I know that issues like these are of great concern to the Archive.

I recall they'd announced the intention to set up a mirror in Canada, did that ever materialize? https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/11/worried-about-us...

They opened a new headquarters in Vancouver recently:

- https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/the-internet-archiv... (Jun 16, 2022)

- On HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31774608 (219 points | 64 comments)

But it seems like a strange location. Why not really branch out and meet the world instead of just sticking around North America?

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#88

I love the Internet Archive and frequently donate to them (2 times so far this year). What I'd love to see improved is the ability to be less "fragile". Currently it's all located in the US and they have a huge focus on the US, both technically and politically. But why not try to replicate it all over the world? There seems to have been some smaller efforts inside the Internet Archive to make it more decentralized, b…

is there any group lobbying for the abolishment of all copyright? I'd like to donate to them.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#89
post #6

So...they didn't think the law should apply so they just decided to ignore it? What were they expecting? How can they possibly expect to win this lawsuit? I hate copyright with all my soul but this is just stupid. You can't just decide to take the law into your own hand. This is just a waste of money and effort.

Lots of laws were ignored or creatively re-interpreted, by plenty of people & entities, during the unprecedented pandemic health emergency of early 2020. Many emergency actions taken by elected leaders have been later found illegal by courts.

But if there was no malice or net harm from such technical violations – or indeed if the breaches effectively prevented greater harms – society and the courts will often find such "law-breaking" to be forgivable or even praise-worthy. For example, you are allowed to break trespassing laws to save a life, and in other situations of private or public necessity.

With regard to reading & education in early 2020, publicly-funded schools & libraries that were supposed to be operating were closed with little warning, for a potentially indefinite amount of time. Millions of purchased books that were supposed to be circulating sat idle in locked buildings. A crucial cultural & civilizational function was stopped dead in its tracks.

Against that, the Internet Archive rapidly deployed a novel technological workaround to re-enable some (but not all) of the pandemic-impaired booklending/reading activity. It did so in a way that had no more effect on the publishers' economic prospects than normal-times library operations, and was arguably within the 'fair use' & format-shifting rights well-established for book owners & libraries in the United States.

So I think IA expects to "win" the lawsuit because they did a good deed for the world's readers, as a temporary & reasonable adaptation to an extraordinary emergency situation, that caused negligible harms to the publisher plaintiffs.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#90
post #35
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders. At the end of the day, The Internet Archive has good intentions and is morally in the right. The time has come to consider changing the laws to allow for truly fair use, especially for physical items scanned to digital (e.g. books), old video games, and more. It's about selecting for the common good over the…

This wasn't about preserving archives, or distributing old works that should have been in the public domain by now, or even "lending" out digital copies backed by physical copies they owned. This was about distributing unlimited digital copies of current works (some published just the year before). Legally and morally I cannot see this as any different or better than blatant copyright piracy. The Internet Archive doe…

They are lending with limitations like a library.

If the nation was founded today people would never build a single library and they would be deeded evil.

Requiring libraries to buy books is an evil practice. As a function of copyright you should have to donate a book for every 10 numbers sold. Libraries create readers who are necessary for writers/publishers.

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