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Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

charmindustrial.com

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Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#81

Post by throwaway0a5e »

hinkley wrote: post #73
gammarator wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tone of this comment is unduly negative, but I agree that they should be hiring folks with relevant experience. Ag mechanization is a well established degree, combine harvesters and augers exist, etc.

We talk about this at least once a week here, usually in the scope of software, but it’s a problem that exists in other domains (though VCs and us are constantly pushing for more businesses to run like software, which is nuts considering how not in order we know our own house to be). Ageism and cultishness are how you end up with simple oversights that anyone who has been around the block a few times would either pre…

This is mostly a cultural problem.

Some professions will readily say "imma keep my mouth shut because this is not my area of expertise" whereas every software engineer is a subject matter on everything up to and including open ended and subjective questions that humans have been trying to conclusively answer all of history. (The various types of mechanical engineers are nearly as bad.)

One could argue that the cultural problem is just a reflection of a demographics problem but I don't care enough about that aspect to make that argument.

As an aside, the failure in TFA doesn't sound that dramatic. Seems like the age old tale of a customer running material handling equipment at the edge of it's comfortable range and an tech needing to be flown out to tell them where to slap vibrators on it or what other minor change needed to be made in order to make it work better. Yeah, they probably should have seen this coming and shipped a more flexible solution or at least have had shovel ready options that didn't involve flying engineers out but whatever, it's a prototype and this stuff happens.

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#82

Post by bluGill »

tclancy wrote: post #23
rexreed wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely agree. Also, how is this firm based in Silicon Valley / San Fran where the customers are primarily in the midwest? If they were serious about this problem, shouldn't they be where their customers or resources are? Building something in isolation and then "shipping" it to where it will be used seems very inefficient and they're clearly missing out on valuable on-the-ground information and experience. This s…

Wouldn’t the reverse question then be, why hasn’t someone in the Midwest done this already?

There are other companies working on similar things in the Midwest. It is a complex problem that farmers are very interested in because they see potential dollars.

https://www.bioenergy-news.com/news/frontline-bioenergys-iow... https://www.news.iastate.edu/news/2016/12/20/rapid

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#83

Post by bequanna »

colechristensen wrote: post #78
photochemsyn wrote: post #68

For quite a few years I looked into similar processes based fundamentally on biological photosynthesis, for example algal pool farms and similar approaches to generating hydrocarbons from biomass. At present, I think direct air capture of CO2 followed by reduction to methane and longer hydrocarbons using water-sourced H2 (all without going through the biological photosynthesis) is going to be the long-term winning te…

I’ve thought a good target would be polluted lakes with algae problems or diverting part of rivers with agricultural runoff. Pump oxygen and whatever bottleneck nutrient in and harvest algae. You’ll clean the excess nutrients out of the water and sink carbon at same time. Do this in the Mississippi River delta for maximum effect, do a pilot in a Minnesota lake first.

So, this pilot would add more algae to a MN lake?

I don’t think you would ever get approval for something like this in a public lake. Maybe in some private, artificial pond?

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#84

Post by pkrein »

dbcurtis wrote: post #50
pkrein wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually we aren’t burning the biomass, we’re heating it without oxygen (pyrolysis) to create a transportable biomass intermediate called bio-oil. That bio-oil is rich in carbon, molasses-like consistency, and the overwhelming odor of barbecue sauce. Today we primarily pump that bbq sauce underground as carbon removal (Biomass Carbon Removal and Storage - BiCRS), but in the future it could be used for BECCS processes…

How is this an overall improvement over leaving the corn stalks in the field to decompose and return nutrients to the soil? This process moves soil nutrients away from point of origin. (Serious question from former Iowa farm boy who still owns corn ground operated by others. Should I let my tenants ship stover away? I want to be a good steward of the soil. )

The process separates the biomass carbon into bio-oil, and the NPK in the biomass separates into the biochar/ash (2% of the N, 70% of the P, >90% of the K). That biochar/ash goes back into the soil. So we recover most of the nutrients, plus you get biochar which improves soil carbon, water retention, microbial health, etc.

https://charmindustrial.com/faq?question=how-do-you-sustaina...

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#85

Post by steve_adams_86 »

colechristensen wrote: post #78
photochemsyn wrote: post #68

For quite a few years I looked into similar processes based fundamentally on biological photosynthesis, for example algal pool farms and similar approaches to generating hydrocarbons from biomass. At present, I think direct air capture of CO2 followed by reduction to methane and longer hydrocarbons using water-sourced H2 (all without going through the biological photosynthesis) is going to be the long-term winning te…

I’ve thought a good target would be polluted lakes with algae problems or diverting part of rivers with agricultural runoff. Pump oxygen and whatever bottleneck nutrient in and harvest algae. You’ll clean the excess nutrients out of the water and sink carbon at same time. Do this in the Mississippi River delta for maximum effect, do a pilot in a Minnesota lake first.

There was an Oxygen and Nitrogen (I think) injection project here in BC which was attempting to burn out phosphorous from silt during seasonal turnover of the water columns. I recall that it never showed a positive effect on the body of water, though occasionally it was negative. Lots of fish died at one point. After several years the measurements of P in the silt were hardly any lower, but still too high.

I guess the trouble was only what to do with the algae. They expected it leave the lake, bringing the excess nutrients with it. How would you harvest it?

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#86

Post by colechristensen »

hinkley wrote: post #73
gammarator wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tone of this comment is unduly negative, but I agree that they should be hiring folks with relevant experience. Ag mechanization is a well established degree, combine harvesters and augers exist, etc.

We talk about this at least once a week here, usually in the scope of software, but it’s a problem that exists in other domains (though VCs and us are constantly pushing for more businesses to run like software, which is nuts considering how not in order we know our own house to be). Ageism and cultishness are how you end up with simple oversights that anyone who has been around the block a few times would either pre…

They just needed one farm kid who became an engineer.

They talked about taking seven weeks to figure out a conveyor, put me in the middle of Kansas and I could have told you how to solve that problem in seven minutes, give me a truck she a credit card and i can buy you the parts in an hour.

Bay Area engineering tends to be very sheltered, large groups of people with zero experience invading a domain. Sometimes it creates cool new solutions to old problems, other times it spends 100x the money on problems solved 100 years ago (And does a worse job at it too)

The real reason self driving cars will ultimately fail is they’re being designed and tested in places like Palo Alto where it doesn’t even rain half the year and a pothole is a thing of legend from lands far away.

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#87

Post by pkrein »

colechristensen wrote: post #86
hinkley wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We talk about this at least once a week here, usually in the scope of software, but it’s a problem that exists in other domains (though VCs and us are constantly pushing for more businesses to run like software, which is nuts considering how not in order we know our own house to be). Ageism and cultishness are how you end up with simple oversights that anyone who has been around the block a few times would either pre…

They just needed one farm kid who became an engineer. They talked about taking seven weeks to figure out a conveyor, put me in the middle of Kansas and I could have told you how to solve that problem in seven minutes, give me a truck she a credit card and i can buy you the parts in an hour. Bay Area engineering tends to be very sheltered, large groups of people with zero experience invading a domain. Sometimes it cre…

Want to come show us how it's done? :)

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#88

Post by colechristensen »

pkrein wrote: post #84
dbcurtis wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this an overall improvement over leaving the corn stalks in the field to decompose and return nutrients to the soil? This process moves soil nutrients away from point of origin. (Serious question from former Iowa farm boy who still owns corn ground operated by others. Should I let my tenants ship stover away? I want to be a good steward of the soil. )

The process separates the biomass carbon into bio-oil, and the NPK in the biomass separates into the biochar/ash (2% of the N, 70% of the P, >90% of the K). That biochar/ash goes back into the soil. So we recover most of the nutrients, plus you get biochar which improves soil carbon, water retention, microbial health, etc. https://charmindustrial.com/faq?question=how-do-you-sustaina...

Yes, but why is this better than leaving the biomass in the field and perhaps doing some soil building techniques?

You also need to hire some farm kids or pay for some scholarships to get interns. Some of the problems you described solving over months would have been trivially solved by someone with farm experiences.

You’d really benefit from going to farm auctions, finding one of these, taking it apart, and adapting the mechanisms to your purposes. https://youtu.be/aYv8aDRv998

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#89

Post by goda90 »

carbadtraingood wrote: post #62
dbcurtis wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this an overall improvement over leaving the corn stalks in the field to decompose and return nutrients to the soil? This process moves soil nutrients away from point of origin. (Serious question from former Iowa farm boy who still owns corn ground operated by others. Should I let my tenants ship stover away? I want to be a good steward of the soil. )

Decomposing biomass releases almost all its mass back as CO2 into the atmosphere, very little is sequestered. This approach removes carbon from the atmosphere permanently. It's also (probably) a net energy producer and it doesn't require creating massive piles of decomposing plant matter everywhere.

This depends on the conditions the biomass is decomposing in. A lot of carbon can be captured in the soil if handled well. No till, no spray, cover crops, and managed grazing of the cover crops can create an environment where the soil is a carbon sink and a better base for future crops.

Re: Corn Cobs: Fuel of Nightmares

#90

Post by colechristensen »

RosanaAnaDana wrote: post #56
dbcurtis wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this an overall improvement over leaving the corn stalks in the field to decompose and return nutrients to the soil? This process moves soil nutrients away from point of origin. (Serious question from former Iowa farm boy who still owns corn ground operated by others. Should I let my tenants ship stover away? I want to be a good steward of the soil. )

Whatever their answer they'll need to account for the fuel cost of the trip to a facility, lifecycle cost of the instrumentation, and fuel cost of a return trip for where ever the whatever is going to go. I can tell you right now having done experimental LCA previously, its not gonna pen out. The cost of moving massive amounts of 'stuff' to do 'something' with it when its an extremely low margin, low value add produc…

You usually have to have entirely renewable generated electric powered processes in order to actually sink meaningful amounts of carbon.

And even then, to actually sink carbon the correct thing to do would be to electrify the farm machinery for a much higher carbon ROI.

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